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ROB'S THESIS ON ROMANS 9 (1 viewing) (1) Guest
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TOPIC: ROB'S THESIS ON ROMANS 9
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ROB1 (User)
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ROB'S THESIS ON ROMANS 9 3 Years, 10 Months ago Rating: 0  
Aheemmm. In my most staunch and distinguished voice, I would like to say that I have prepared a thesis on Romans 9 that anyone who cares to may examine all they like. I'll only post scriptures 1-9 for now because these are the one's that will probably need the most attention. Ahheemmm, let's discuss, shall we???

Thesis Statement – This chapter displays Paul’s desire for the Jews to receive Christ, shows how God elected certain people for certain purposes (positive and negative) throughout history to bring to pass His divine plan and also reveals why the Israelites who fell away did so, because they did not seek righteousness by faith, but by the works of the Law.

Romans 9:1-5
In this portion of the chapter, Paul is lamenting for his Jewish brethren and speaks of all of the good things God did with them. Paul makes it clear in verse 5 that God divinely chose the Israelite race to bring for the Christ according to the flesh (meaning Jesus’ race).

Romans 9:6
Here Paul states that just because the Jewish people had all of this history with God and they still rejected the Christ didn’t mean the word of God was ineffective. He also states that just because a person was born in the nation of Israel physically didn’t mean they would be counted as member of the spiritual Israel (he also explains why the Israelites who fell away did so in verses 32-33).

Romans 9:7-9
Continuing from verse 8, Paul states here that a person also wouldn’t be counted as a spiritual child of Abraham because they were the natural “seed” of Abraham (meaning because Abraham was their natural father). He specifies that through Isaac (not Ishmael) the seed would be called. (This word “seed” is referring to Jesus Christ.) Verse 8 further explains verse 7 by contrasting between the children of the flesh (meaning descendants of Ishmael) and the children of the promise (meaning descendants of Isaac). Verse 9 verifies this by naming the portion of the promise he was referring to, namely Sarah herself bearing Abraham a son.
 
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Re:ROB'S THESIS ON ROMANS 9 3 Years, 10 Months ago Rating: 0  
I agree that we need to go back to fully understand what Romans 9 is saying, but maybe a little further than 8, more like to chapter 1. I've found that by reading all the way into 9 in one sitting gives us the correct perspective of Romans 9. I'm not gonna lie. If I read Romans 9 without knowing the rest of that letter plus other scriptures in the Bible, I would believe that the Calvinistic framework is totally correct and the only correct way to view the Bible. So we have to get a full understanding of what's being said to properly exegete that chapter. We just went over this chapter in our Bible study last week and we started in 6 and went to 9.
 
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Re:ROB'S THESIS ON ROMANS 9 3 Years, 10 Months ago Rating: 0  
For the sake of time though, let's start at Romans 8:28 as you suggested. I'll put it up and exegete it and you tell me whether I'm right or wrong:

Romans 8:28
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

From reading all of the passages in Romans 8 before this one, Paul is saying that God will cause all things (good and bad) to work together for the good of the people that love God (meaning the people that have chosen to believe the Gospel and submit to God's commandments). This promise is offered to those who God has called according to God's purpose.

How's that?
 
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Re:ROB'S THESIS ON ROMANS 9 3 Years, 10 Months ago Rating: 0  
Monergism wrote:
QUOTE:
ROB1 wrote:
QUOTE:
I agree that we need to go back to fully understand what Romans 9 is saying, but maybe a little further than 8, more like to chapter 1. I've found that by reading all the way into 9 in one sitting gives us the correct perspective of Romans 9. I'm not gonna lie. If I read Romans 9 without knowing the rest of that letter plus other scriptures in the Bible, I would believe that the Calvinistic framework is totally correct and the only correct way to view the Bible. So we have to get a full understanding of what's being said to properly exegete that chapter. We just went over this chapter in our Bible study last week and we started in 6 and went to 9.


So you're saying that if you read Romans 9 prima facie, you come out with Calvinism? Interesting.


Yes, that's what I'm saying. Romans 9 not being understood in the light of the rest of scripture would mean exactly what Calvinism teaches that it does. The problem I see is people have read Romans 9 in the past without understanding the rest of scripture and then elevated Romans 9 in their minds and started looking througout the Bible to find passages that agree with what Romans 9 implies and teach that as doctrine.
 
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Last Edit: 2011/02/06 12:10 By ROB1.
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Re:ROB'S THESIS ON ROMANS 9 3 Years, 10 Months ago Rating: 0  
I'll get back to this later on tonight. Just letting you know I saw it.
 
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Re:ROB'S THESIS ON ROMANS 9 3 Years, 10 Months ago Rating: 0  
Ok bro, I have a few issues with some of your exegesis of Romans 8. Here they are:

Monergism:
Romans 8 is where we shall begin. First, we note that Paul makes several promises to the Roman Christians: first, that there is now no condemnation for them (v1), that God has set them free by the Spirit (v2), that they are not in the flesh but rather in the Spirit (v9), that they have been adopted as sons (v15), and that they are children of God and joint-heirs of all creation with Christ (v16-18), the redemption of their bodies which is most assuredly coming (v 23), that the Spirit prays for us in our weakness (v 26), that all things work for our good (v 28), that we shall most assuredly be glorified as surely as we are elect (v 29-30), that God is for us (v 31), that God will give us all things to enjoy (v 32), that nobody can bring a charge against God's elect (v 33), and that we are more than conquerors and that nothing shall ever separate us from God's love in Christ Jesus (v 35ff)

Now, we have all of these promises laid out all throughout the eight chapter of Romans. Once again, the question must be raised by Paul's readers: "But didn't Israel have those promises? And furthermore, what is Israel's role in all of this? If God's done with Israel, will that mean that He could be done with us one day, too?"


1) You speak as if the promises that were made to the Romans Christians (Jews and Gentiles) were unconditional, when in fact the word "if" is all throughout chapter 8. So I just wanted to verify whether or not you were trying to say those promises are conditonal or not. The first verse in chapter has a condition tied to it:

Romans 8:1
1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Read verses 5-13. I'll post 13 here because it makes everything from 5 to 13 conditional:

Romans 8:13
13 For if you live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

2) Since Paul had just told them in chapter 8 that those promises were conditional, he had already informed them of what it took to get in on the promises. In chapter 9 Paul starts explaining how God dealt with Israel for the sake of the Jewish Christians. Remember, Paul was basically "humbling" the Jews to discourage them from looking down on the Gentile Christians. In Chapter 9, Paul continues to get more specific in describing how God dealt with Israel and why the majority of the Jews were cut off. When Paul starts describing election, he wasn't speaking of general salvation, he was speaking of God electing people for service in His overall plan.

So if we read from verse 4 to verse 15, we can see that Paul is speaking of God using Israel in His plan and he is reminding the Jews of God's soverignty, that He can choose whoever He wants for use in His plan.

If this doesn't make sense to you, please explain why you believe Paul is answering a question the readers may have had about God being done with the Gentiles, when he already explained to them what they had to do individually to get in on God's covenant?
 
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Last Edit: 2011/02/07 21:51 By ROB1.
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Re:ROB'S THESIS ON ROMANS 9 3 Years, 10 Months ago Rating: 0  
Cmon, let's not start that again. lol I could say since you believe God caused you to trust Jesus, that means you havent willfully done it, so you are still in your sins. I believe we have to choose to believe when we hear the Gospel and that God draws us to Jesus, but He doesn't make us accept Him. But let's talk about Romans 8 and 9 because I want to see if you can show me why you see what you see.

The word "if" means on the condition of. So you believe that Romans 8 is saying that a Christian will always walk after the Spirit? So do you believe Christians sin? If you believe they sin, are you saying that a Christian is still walking in the Spirit even when they walk in sin?

When you read Romans 8:13

Romans 8:13
13For if you live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Who's he talking about when he says "you" in verse 13? Everyone except Christians? To me it seems very clear that he is still talking to the Christians because a sinner cant obey the second half of the verse.

What is the evidence that a person is truly believes the Gospel? Are saying it only takes a mental belief? I believe the Bible teaches that "having faith" is way more than a mental assention:

Hebrews 3:
12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;


And also:

James 2:
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?


So, yes its primarily by faith, but our works make our faith perfect. If we have no works then it means our faith has died and dead faith wont save anyone.

Do I still sound "unsaved" to you?
 
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Last Edit: 2011/02/08 12:54 By ROB1.
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Re:ROB'S THESIS ON ROMANS 9 3 Years, 10 Months ago Rating: 0  
Monergism wrote:
QUOTE:
Can I ask, for the sake of my own curiosity, which sources you're using? Can you post the titles of any commentaries\sermons\helps you're using so I understand where you're coming from?


I'm not using any commentaries, only what I have learned in from going to the instituional church and studying the Bible for the last 16 yrs.

When I studied some of the early church fathers, I found that I believe what they believed. Not in agreement with everything they did, but I am in agreement with what they believed.

http://www.ccel.org/

You can read some of their writings at the above site. I really like Polycarp's writings.
 
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Re:ROB'S THESIS ON ROMANS 9 3 Years, 10 Months ago Rating: 0  
Monergism wrote:
QUOTE:
Yes, you do.


Thanks for the honesty, I guess. **sigh**

Just remember, when we stand before God He wont be soley looking for faith, He will be looking at our works. I've never seen one scripture that indicates we will be judged soley by what we believe. Faith must lead to works and if it doesn't, its dead and it wont save you. Read James 2, the entire chapter as a reference.

Show me your faith without works, and I'll show you my faith by my works (James). This thinking is all throughout the Bible, bro.:

Proverbs 20:11
11Even a child is known by his doings, whether his work be pure, and whether it be right. (not by what he says he believe, but by what he does)

Rev 20:12
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Romans 2:
4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;


Verse 7 proves Paul is speaking about the Christians who believe, because we know people who don't believe cant walk in verse 7, right?
 
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Last Edit: 2011/02/08 13:06 By ROB1.
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Re:ROB'S THESIS ON ROMANS 9 3 Years, 10 Months ago Rating: 59  
Monergism wrote:
QUOTE:
Out of curiosity, does anyone else have anything to say about my exegesis thus far?


It's been a while since I've read an exegesis or commentary written by someone I actually know that I thoroughly enjoyed...and while I may not have learned something, some stuff definitely clicked as I read it.
 
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