[b]defiant_revolutionary wrote:[/b] [quote]Ok a question. If God is predetermining things then why give Torah for instructions? why bother giving instructions if you know who will and who won't accept them [/quote] That is like saying, why tell a disobedient child what to do if you know they aren't going to obey. You know that they aren't going to do what you say but you say it anyway. We are not puppets, God hasn't planed out every single movement of our lives, [quote]Furthermore there would really be no righteous or wicked, because no one had a choice in the matter[/quote] A coin has two sides, I don't have a choice to have a coin with two sides and even though it will always have 2 sides we can say it has two sides. [quote]The instructions say clearly that there are righteous and there are wicked.... so then the instructions would be lying because only God (the decision maker) can be righteous or wicked.[/quote] A sinner commits a sin, they are still a sinner though even though everyone sins. saying that someone isn't something if they don't choose it makes no sense. [quote]in order for it to be our fault it means we had the free will to fault... and if we have the free will to fault we have the free will to be correct[/quote] Predestination mean the predetermination of salvation, not every single action we do.