Being one who enjoys frequenting Christian forums from time to time, I've come across a number of posts in which people were discussing topics such as exactly what kind of "sex" is acceptable, good, and pure after (when) you're married. Well, even though these were Christian message boards, sadly the posts often start to get pretty graphic and inappropriate. At the risk of being judged as naive or unrealistic, I'd like to present my perspective on this issue of what is/is not "sexually right" to do in the marriage bed. First, let's make it clear that the Scriptures do teach how the world has a corrupted version of God's original plan for marital intimacy...or at least shows us where the foundation of such degradation first began. Take a look with me at the following passage of Scripture (my comments in {}'s): "Therefore God gave them up in the lusts {ungodly desires} of their own hearts to sexual {anything, related to the body, that God has set apart as private from the opposite sex} impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves. Because they exchanged the truth of God {or the leading of His Spirit} for a lie and worshiped and served the creature {body} rather than the Creator {spirit}...For this reason God gave them over and abandoned them to vile affections and degrading passions. For their women exchanged their natural function for an unnatural or abnormal one {temple/body prostitution}..." [Romans 1:24-26] So what points can we pull out of these scriptures, which may not already seem so apparent, but are the obvious outcome over time? 1) The world's view and approach to marital intimacy is based on a lie. What lie? That marital intimacy should be led by/focused on the body (our outer/physical temple)- rather than the spirit. While the body is a beautiful gift from the Lord (and to your spouse), it was never intended to be your primary focus during intimacy. First we should be focused on the spirit (prayerful, mindful, thankful, and worshipful toward the Lord), then heart (seeking and being sensitive to meet your partner's most intimate longings), then soul (being considerate to your partner's thoughts, desires, and feelings), and then body (sensual pleasures and conception). I should not have an out of balance focus on my partner's body (in effect, lusting after their flesh), rather than longing to touch her heart. I'll explain this further as we go. 2) The body should be honored- not dishonored. So there are things we can do, in the marriage bed, which actually dishonor our body (and His body...being that we are a member of His Church). 3) There is a natural and unnatural use for our body, in the context of marital intimacy. 4) There are some things that can be done in the marriage bed which are vile or degrading (to one or both parties). "Let marriage be held in honor in all things. And thus let the marriage bed be undefiled (kept undishonored); for God will judge and punish the unchaste {Greek- pornos} (all guilty of sexual vice) and adulterous." [Hebrews 13:4] What can we glean from this verse? 1) Every aspect of marriage (including the marriage bed and marital intimacy) should be held (talked about and acted toward) in honor. 2) The marriage bed can be defiled by certain activities- such as sexual vice {pornos} (wrong sexual conduct) and adultery. Now, for the obvious question...how do we (as believers) determine what is true, honorable, pure, chaste, right, and natural in the marriage bed? The same way we always should in every area of our lives- being led by His Spirit and by His Word. "So then, brethren, we are debtors, but not to the flesh (we are not obligated to our carnal nature) to live (a life ruled by the standards set up by the dictates) of the flesh...but if through the power of the Holy Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the flesh you shall (experience) true life. For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God." [Romans 8:12-14] "Every scripture is God breathed and profitable for instruction, for reproof and conviction of sin, for correction of error and discipline in obedience, and for training in righteousness (in holy living, in conformity to God's will in thought, purpose, and action)." [2 Timothy 3:16] The world has, sadly, influenced the Church so much in this area that we often talk and act like they do (commonly saying things like "having sex" to refer to the fleshly act, using scientific/cold/flesh focused names for certain private parts of the body, focusing first on the physical rather than the spirit). Now I'm not discussing medical terminology (that's another subject), but rather within the context of marital intimacy. I'm also not saying that it is "sinful" to use such expressions...it's just not as meaningful and respectful as I feel God intended it to be. Does Scripture exemplify this type of attitude toward intimacy in marriage? The world (who is led by Satan) has taken this very holy & spiritually significant area of our life and has made it seem secular in nature. This is that which represents the very union of Christ and His Church- which brings about an opening of this veil between the spirit realm and the flesh realm (conception). Such an awe inspiring and sacred experience should never be secularized and talked about matter-of-factly in the context of marriage. Should it? This very special time should be likened more to when one entered into the "Holy of Holies" (behind that mysterious veil in the Old Testament temple)- where God's Spirit would pass through that veil, which separated the spirit and physical realm. Intimacy within marriage is (should be) a holy activity and is the beginning of a mysterious time when a child is able to pass into our world from the spirit realm. Please, pause and take a moment to think about this. Such a holy and awesome experience should not be just "openly" and casually talked about or acted upon, should it? I know this may be hard to swallow, being that most of us have been ingrained and educated to be desensitized or "open" when it comes to this very private and holy subject of marital intimacy, but shall we open the bedroom door as well and let everybody have a look? So why should we continue to do it with our words? Why should we continue to unclothe before others what God has told us to cover? There's a reason that marital intimacy is supposed to be private. God designed it that way. This is why pornography violates our conscience (a healthy one at least) like it does. Within the next post, we'll begin addressing what Scripture has to say about (and how to be Spirit led in) marital intimacy. __________ [i][Song of Solomon 4:10-12] "How fair is thy love, my sister, my wife! how much better is thy love than wine!"[/i] [url]http://spiritledintimacy.com[/url]

[img]http://vicorientation.ca/site/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/AndHereWeGo.gif[/img]

First, let me start by listing Scriptures that describe intimacy between a man and a woman (using KJV- because most other versions, though I use them as well, tend to paraphrase the original words/expressions with so called "modern equivalents " ): "And Adam knew Eve as his wife, and she became pregnant..." [Genesis 4:1;4:17;4:25;38:26; Judges 11:39;19:22,25; Matthew 1:25] "And he went in unto Hagar, and she conceived..." [Genesis 16:4;29:23,30;30:4;38:2,9] "...Reuben went and lay with Bilhah..." [Genesis 35:22] "And if any man's seed of lying down {literal Hebrew: shekabah- lying down} go out from him..." [Leviticus 15:16-18] "None of you shall approach to any that is near of kin to him, to uncover their nakedness..." [Leviticus 18:6-19] "...into the bed of love..." [Ezekiel 23:17] "...and come together again, that Satan tempt you not..." [1 Corinthians 7:5] "...let the marriage bed be undefiled..." [Hebrews 13:4] So what's my point in showing all of these verses? I'm not trying to wrangle over words (saying that we should have to adopt these expressions- although I prefer many of them myself). I'm just wanting to point out a common thread throughout Scripture: when it comes to expressions regarding intimate relations...God's Word uses descriptions which are non-illicit, mysterious (not scientific), symbolic (marriage bed, bed of love), deep (to know), or sacred. You see, we don't find any words in the Old or New Testaments (at least not in the original Greek/Hebrew texts) which exemplify the way the world describes certain aspects of marital intimacy (such as "having sex" or any of the specific acts that we will not even mention). Yet, the world has it all mapped out (according to the flesh) and they have a casual name and expression for every possible sexual (male/female private) part or act that can take place. Now that we, the Church, are starting to be flesh focused and "open" about particular sexual relations...they say we need "sex education" so that we can properly understand and know our "sexuality?" What a downward spiral we're on. So, how much knowledge is enough? I say God's Word, common sense, first hand (untaught) experience (on the wedding night, not in a classroom), and being Spirit led are wholly sufficient for completely fulfilling the deepest aspects of marital intimacy. The world can't help but continue reaching for that fruit of knowledge (of Good and Evil) and then passing us the rotting fruit as they pass. I know it seems very trivial to pick on words, but I believe they're very important and that we should not just change them from their original meaning (except in the case of slang, of course). That's the whole basis of language- otherwise everyone would just come up with their own meanings for words and there would be confusion in communication. For instance, "sex" was originally a designation of male or female (not an act between them). Yet, as far as I can tell, the "sex" word that most people use is just a short way (an abbreviation) of saying "sexual intercourse" and not the way God originally created the word to be expressed for our good. So with that being said, I can understand why people use it. That may seem fine for most, but I personally don't care to use that word in this way- it's just too sterile, flesh focused, and scientific for me. I prefer to keep expressions of this experience (marital intimacy) as mysterious, deep, symbolic, spiritually focused, and sacred (very carefully and reverentially spoken of) as reasonably possible. I don't want to speak about it in terms of this act or that act (which focuses me on the flesh rather than the heart, soul, and spirit of my mate)...I want to consider it so holy that I only "speak" of it in the most sensitive of ways. The Song of Solomon is my favorite example of this...passionate, playful, yet...so very holy. More to come... __________ [i][Song of Solomon 4:10-12] "How fair is thy love, my sister, my wife! how much better is thy love than wine!"[/i] [url]http://spiritledintimacy.com[/url]

[img size=199]http://www.mypraize.com/images/fbfiles/images/Secret_Garden_Gate.jpg[/img] [color=#800080]I look forward (as the Lord leads) to a marriage of my own, in which I'll be able to share such true loving intimacy. We're growing closer so with each passing day. I just don't believe that there are words worthy to describe the intimate details of this very special time between a man and his precious bride. It cheapens the experience, as well as the meaning and the creative symbolism, to just discuss this casually- like we're only pieces of meat. I'll use the "Holy of Holies" example again. This inner room of the Temple (in Old Testament times) was considered very sacred- because it was the place where God's Spirit breached the veil of our physical realm. If the priest entered this area unworthily, casually, or focused on the physical (rather than the presence of God)- then he was in danger of falling over dead. So should be our reverence, awe, and respect for the mystery of the marriage bed (by which the veil between the spirit and physical realm is opened for conception). Now, I don't need to get into the subject of what the purpose of marital intimacy is (that's been debated among men for centuries and is too much for me to care to address fully in this writing). Rather, I wish to submit the following question: what is marital intimacy supposed to represent and be like? We need to keep marital intimacy in a way that is worthy to be a picture of the intimacy between Christ and His Church (His Bride). Look at the communion of the Lord's Supper. Let me ask you, when we take the bread and wine, do we focus on that (bread) or do we focus on Him (Christ)? As a matter of fact, to take the Lord's Supper unworthily can be dangerous for us- according to Scripture. [1 Corinthians 11:27-29] I believe we need to come back to the mystery, holy reverence, and depth of being that was originally intended for marital intimacy. It should be joyful, loving, giving, prayerful, tender, thankful, respectful, caring, sensitive, passionate, and so many more heartfelt/spirit led blessings- shared between married lovers and the Lord. Most importantly, though...every stage, every thought, every act, and every expression should be focused (led and originating) from the Spirit of God within- not the flesh without. That kind of intimacy cannot happen just by accident or because you simply want it to. In the chapters to come, I'll be laying out exactly how we can prepare our hearts for such intimacy...as only the Lord Himself could orchestrate, in a passionate love song of worship, back to Himself. As with any garden, our heart will need tending and keeping and clipping and pruning...if it is ever to produce such sweet fruit and ever so potent wines in our midst.[/color] __________ [i][Song of Solomon 4:10-12] "How fair is thy love, my sister, my wife! how much better is thy love than wine!"[/i] [url]http://spiritledintimacy.com[/url]

[color=#800080]Now, on to a more in-depth view of Spirit led intimacy. First let me make it clear, that what I'm saying in this section only applies to evenly yoked married believers (in other words, who have the same heart for the Lord and who are spiritually alive). In cases where a believer and non-believer (or even a believer who has deep sin strongholds) are married, it's not the same. The second partner is either spiritually dead or their heart is too impure (thorny)...making it much more difficult to be led by the Spirit of God (watching out what spirits you may be opening yourself up to). That's a separate subject that we'll not be addressing at this point, so...I'll continue on. There is no need for me (or some "sex ed" teacher) to tell you what particular actions are not good or pure to do. God's Spirit is in you and He will "lead you into all truth (righteousness)." [1 John 2:27] The problem, again, is that the world has convinced many of us to separate this one area of our life and make it secular (not spirit led, but rather flesh led). Yet, the priests of Israel did not just go into the "Holy of Holies" and guess (or make up) what to do- they followed God's instructions. Well, now God's Spirit is in us and He instructs us from within. You see...marital intimacy is a form of worship and, as with any act of worship, the body draws us (like with music). But the focus should always be on Him (spirit)- not on instruments or sounds or singers. "Those who worship God must worship Him in spirit and in truth." [John 4:24] In the marital song (which leads the dance of the marriage bed), our body is just a channel to enter this holy place of worship. Yet, the primary focus should stay on Him first- only then will He lead such lovers to truly focus on each other in the most fulfilling way possible. Marital intimacy should be a prayerful ("pray without ceasing" ) , worshipful, and reverential (for the supernatural) experience in which God is the head and we are open to His Spirit- as He leads us at every step. Who knows better how to meet the deepest needs of our partner than Him? He will lead us to express ourselves (intimately) toward each other in a truly fulfilling way, which we could not have ever figured out on our own- I don't care how many "sex ed" or "Kama sutra" books you've read! If we want to have a truly fulfilling intimate experience with our future (or current) mate, we need to first start asking God to guide our intimate times together. He will lead us in truly ministering to and fulfilling our partner. He will focus us on each other's heart, soul, and spirit. Don't so much concern yourself with the physical part, as it will surely have no problem following along. That's just a given. So this is what I believe the Lord for, in my own marriage. If this thread touched your heart in a special way and you also feel a desire to believe the Lord for this in your marriage as well...I encourage you to read on. There are three factors (a pure heart, protected privacy, and faith filled modesty), that need to be right in the Lord, which will quench Him from being able to minister these blessings He created us to experience. There are some areas, which many believers are not aware of, that will choke (and are already choking) out the potential for them to experience truly fulfilling intimacy within marriage. I'd like to share what I know of these hindrances in the clearest ways I can- so that you will someday experience the marriage bed as He so wonderfully designed you to. I very much look forward to what the Lord has in store. I hope you will as well.[/color] __________ [i][Song of Solomon 4:10-12] "How fair is thy love, my sister, my wife! how much better is thy love than wine!"[/i] [url]http://spiritledintimacy.com[/url]

[color=#800080] The reason I believe the Lord has called me to share these principles with you is two-fold. I believe He plans for many of us to see clearly, from the Word of God, how we can best prepare our hearts in order to receive (from the Lord or our marriage partner) and give (to the Lord or our marriage partner) at the deepest levels of our being. It’s during our times of intimacy that His Spirit yearns to lead us most- just read the Song of Solomon. There’s a reason that not many believers (at least not in our current culture) experience what the Lord so perfectly designed for us to in this area of our lives. There are a few key blind spots in the lives of most believers today (especially in America) which subtly block them from being able to experience natural (much less supernatural) intimacy in marriage. In a very detailed, line upon line fashion, a good part of this my threads so far have been (as well as to come will be) dedicated in attempting to shed some light on those "blind spots." Also I'd like to share, from God's Word, how to get these areas into natural balance again- so that true intimacy can be shared between a couple and the Lord. Instead of just starting the more in-depth portions of this thread with straight forward teaching, I'm going to simply share my heart with you about where the Lord has led me to- as well as where I'm believing He will lead my wife to. In other words, I'm just going to sum up all of those teachings in a way that shows how the Lord first had me apply them to my own life. This will also show how it is that our own marriage partner will be able to meet with us at and share these deep levels of intimacy before the Lord. Please do pray before you read what I'm about to lay out...I want you to receive everything the Lord has in store.[/color] __________ [i][Song of Solomon 4:10-12] "How fair is thy love, my sister, my wife! how much better is thy love than wine!"[/i] [url]http://spiritledintimacy.com[/url]

[color=#800080] So what's the first ingredient to this wonderful blessing of Spirit led intimacy, which God designed to be experienced in the marriage bed? It's none other than a holy and pure heart before the Lord. The more we seek our Heavenly Father for healing in our conscience (so that we will be naturally sensitive to those things that are not healthy for us to purposely or even passively allow into our hearts [Luke 11:34; Romans 2:15; Philippians 2:12; 1 Timothy 1:5; Titus 1:15]...then, the more we will know which thoughts are unhealthy and need to be arrested (taken captive) to His Lordship. [2 Corinthians 10:5] Then and only then will we be better able to diligently guard the door (or ground) of our hearts [Proverbs 4:23; 16:17] as His Word so urges us to. The Lord is faithful that, if we seek to obey Him by diligently guarding our hearts, He will put to death those thoughts we reject (take captive) at the door of our heart and He will cleanse them from our midst. [2 Corinthians 7:1; Ephesians 5:26; 1 John 1:9] So what does all of this mean? Well when a person is presented a thought in their mind (an image, word, or emotion) which is not healthy for their heart to receive (such as pornography, profanity, hate, and so on)...then, if their conscience has not been desensitized (seared) in this area by the influence of the culture around them, God has designed it so that our conscience will automatically reject those thoughts and give you the opportunity to dispose of them (give them over to the Lord). It's that natural pain we feel when we're doing something we should not be doing. This pain is good for us because it draws our attention to something that we need to seek to be cleansed, healed, or delivered from. Here is the problem. The conscience is there for our benefit, but it does not block our free will. We are free to force these thoughts (set aflame with sin) through the sensitive protective barrier of our conscience and down into our hearts. Once we do this over and over...eventually, the conscience becomes so seared (in this particular area) that we no longer feel pain there- as the unhealthy thoughts just flow freely into the fertile grounds of our hearts. What these thoughts (or seeds) grow into and what damage they cause in our lives is what I'm getting at here. This is something I'll address a little further down. These are the very areas that I call "blind spots"...the areas of our conscience that have been seared to the point that we no longer even see (feel) the unhealthy thoughts which are daily entering our hearts and bearing unhealthy (damaging) fruit into our lives. [Proverbs 4:23] These blind spots have developed heavily within the American Church...mostly due to the fact that we started becoming so lukewarm during the early 1900's, we stopped being salt & light, and we started looking more to the world for our comfort (safety and pleasure) or entertainment. As time went on, we slowly became more and more desensitized by opening ourselves up to the world in this way (the "Roaring 20's " ) . Fast forward through many years of the Devil daily using different ways to take advantage of our apathy toward holiness (offering us plenty of subtly searing forms of entertainment, ill gained wealth, fear of sickness, and so on). Now we dress, entertain ourselves, and accept as "normal" things that even the world (and definitely the Church) would have deemed as horribly immodest, garbage for the mind, and borderline insanity just a short 100 years ago. We have come a long way (gradually accepting subtle wrongs as acceptable rights). Our marriages, children, and society as a whole have paid dearly for it. So, how does all of this apply to our everyday lives? Well for me, I felt convicted to start seeking the Lord to first heal my conscience in every area that I've been desensitized- of course, I'm still a work in progress until Jesus returns. Then He led me to pray that He would reveal to me all of those thoughts which are not healthy for me to allow or have in my heart. We need Him to daily teach us what to guard our hearts against, to give us the strength (will) to be diligent in the battle, and to continue healing our conscience when we do fail. We need to believe the Lord to free and cleanse our hearts from all of those strongholds, which have grown out of the bad seeds that were allowed to implant into our hearts from our past. We need the Holy Spirit to continue in removing any bad seed that slips past our guard, as we continue to seek Him to do this. The amazing thing is that once we daily exercise our conscience in these areas (by using it as God designed and not abusing it as the flesh desires), then it becomes a subconscious effort. The things you used to struggle to reject and protect yourself from, you don't even give a second thought about entertaining anymore. You start becoming naturally sensitive and can quickly make right decisions concerning that area (whether it be what movie to watch, what modest outfit to wear, who should be able to touch you where, and so forth). At that point, we're well on our way to having the clean and clear conscience which Scriptures so often speak of. The Church in America has not had this for a very long time- the fruit we see today (in our culture) is positive proof of that. We're not the salt and light that we were in past American history (when the moral climate of the world was relatively high because the Church's standards were still balanced and holy unto the Lord). Now all of the years of searing (desensitizing) our conscience have lowered our resistance and standards of purity so much that the average believer is starting to accept even more radical stands (nudity/prostitution in entertainment, men being with other men as with a woman, wives being seen and touched in private areas by men who are not their husbands). These are things that would have sparked strong concern within the Church before we gave so much ground- the momentum is almost unstoppable it seems. That's where we come in. I want to share with you what the Lord has presented to me in these areas. So, what is the point in all of this (other than to simply obey the Lord)? Every seed (thought) we allow into our heart will bear fruit in due season. When we allow bad seed into our hearts, it produces a type of fruit that the Lord did not design as good to be there. This poisonous fruit causes damage and heartache in many areas of our lives. It grieves the Holy Spirit or hinders the Lord from being able to do any good work in that area of our heart & life. It eventually develops into a stronghold and it just smothers out every bit of what God designed us to naturally (and supernaturally) walk in or experience in this area of our life. [Matthew 13:7] These principles can be applied to most any area of our lives, which need to be set in balance and healed- so that the Lord can do wonderful things through us and bless us in these areas. Now, I'm going to focus in on what matters to us most at this point (or at least in this writing)...how can we prepare our hearts to experience Spirit led intimacy in marriage (not just in the Marriage Bed, but in every expression of our intimate times in marriage) at the deepest and most fulfilling levels the Lord has created us to? I don't need to tell you this if you already read the chapter on Spirit led intimacy, but...it is supposed to be a supernatural, deep reaching, Christ centered, prayerful, worship full, praise worthy, loving, heart to heart, eyes to eyes, mysteriously wonderful, and miraculous time- between a man, his wife, and the Lord. So what is it that most of us in the average church are blind to, which so hinders us from being able to have such an intimate relationship? For me, as a man (and also to some extent for women), my first area I need to be holy (set apart) unto the Lord is my heart. I need to maintain a pure and holy heart. To be specific, in order to ensure that there's as little hindrance as possible to the level of intimacy I'm able to share with my wife...I need to guard my heart so that no woman (who is not my wife) shares a place in my heart, which only a wife should have. In other words, I will not allow (and I pray against at every turn) any thought (immodest image, seductive words, or fantasies of the flesh) of a woman who is not my wife (what the Bible calls a "stranger" or "strange woman" to our marriage). These areas of my heart are reserved for my wife only and I will not allow a nude (or even immodest) image of a strange woman (including something I saw of a female stranger in front of me) to share that holy place with her. In order to have complete intimacy with my wife, I need to be able to share EVERY area of my heart with her (total openness). I can't share those areas where a woman, who is a stranger to our marriage bed, is being allowed to have such a place. Obviously, she would be hurt if I did expose her to such a secretly unfaithful area of my heart- where she is both unwelcome and excluded. So, there you have it...the first ingredient, which is necessary in the heart of a man (and a woman as well) so that the fruit of true marital intimacy in the Lord can be shared together. While this is a much lesser concern to women, as they don't struggle with this as men do by nature...it can subtly creep up in women as well. Let's endeavor to keep our hearts holy for the Lord and for our marriage partners alone.[/color] __________ [i][Song of Solomon 4:10-12] "How fair is thy love, my sister, my wife! how much better is thy love than wine!"[/i] [url]http://spiritledintimacy.com[/url]

I feel like you're just talking to yourself...

[quote]I feel like you're just talking to yourself...[/quote] FWIW, I've been reading these (or skimming) and his perspective is interesting. It seems extreme but it's more or less just consistent with itself. Christians are super afraid to talk about anything sexual in open when we live in a culture where people discover this stuff in less than ideal conditions. At least he's providing a perspective on the whole thing that is supportable by Scripture. And the emphasis on intimacy and openness with your spouse is cool. The whole thing almost seems like an impossible standard but then again, so is any attempt to live completely righteous (on our own, without Christ, help of the Holy Spirit etc.).

[color=#0000FF][b]keyseya wrote:[/b][quote]I feel like you're just talking to yourself...[/quote][/color] As long as people are at least reading and thinking about what's being presented...it's well worth the time, I think. Only the Lord knows what seeds sown where will bear fruit in the end. My part is just to sow the seed and tend the ground a bit when those weeds, thorns, or thistles make an appearance. I'm referring to ideas or beliefs and not people themselves, of course.