[color=#800080] There are a number of posts by others out there that center on or gravitate toward the subject of modesty, but I wanted to bear in on a particular mindset I believe we need to take hold of in the Body of Christ. Other posts do a very good job of covering issues like: walking in love by not being a stumbling block for others, keeping private areas private, and what type of clothing is not appropriate to wear. I'm not going to so much address those issues in this book as much as "why" we should live our lives in such a way and how to discern what truly is modest to wear. Before we look at the primary passage of focus for this chapter [1 Timothy 2:9], we should ask a few questions- to put this verse (and Paul's Hebrew mindset) into context. Is the primary purpose of clothing meant to "cover" our nakedness or is its primary purpose meant to just simply accent our body? Is it only needed if the weather is bad outside or what? Is deciding if it is ok for us to be naked or not (in any manner) determined by the weather, our location, our culture, our motivations, or is it based on who is looking at us? I know this seems pretty basic, but we need to get this clearly laid out and into the forefront of our minds. Let's see what Scripture has to say. [Genesis 3:7,10,21] "And the eyes of them both were opened {Hebrew- Paqach- observant}, and they knew they were naked {Hebrew- Eyrom- nude or bare}; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons {Hebrew- Chagowr- a top with a girdle bottom (similar in coverage to the modern day tankini)}...And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself....Unto Adam also and his wife did the Lord make coats {Hebrew- Kethoneth- from the root "to cover" but literally speaking of a robe like garment} of skins, and clothed {Hebrew- Labash- literally translated "to wrap around"} them." So here we see, in Scripture, the first clothing that mankind ever wore and the original purpose for it. It was to cover our shame or nakedness from who was looking at us. Now don't get all hung up on the specific examples given, just understand the principles. Watch the progression...first Adam & Eve lost their outer glory [examples of such covering glory can be found in Exodus 34:29-35; Matthew 17:2; 1 Corinthians 15:39-54] and so visually became aware (observing that their former glorified clothing was now missing) that certain parts of their bodies now needed to be covered (to hide the shame of their fallen state). Then Adam & Eve tried to make their own covering (clothing)- based on their limited and fallen understanding ("there is a way that seems right to a man..." ) . Yet, God showed up and Adam became convicted- because they knew that they were still practically naked. Practically, meaning private areas could still sometimes too easily be seen throughout normal range of motions- so, for all practical purposes, they were not truly covered. Am I reading into Scripture? No, just using reason based on obvious principles of what it means to cover. Figuratively, this verse shows man trying to cover over sin his own way and then God showing us that our sin can only be covered His Way (blood sacrifice). As with every figurative verse, though, there is an original practical application- that's my focus here. So God, by His wisdom (knowing what's best for us), made robes for them to properly cover their nakedness. Again, don't get all hung up on what exactly those robes were- just know that they covered in every practical way. Otherwise, what's the point of trying to cover anything if it's not going to be easy (and a non-conscious effort) to keep it covered constantly. Again, if you really are interested, just look up the word robe or coat in your KJV concordance and see how it is used throughout the Old Testament (as part of priestly garments and so on). My point is that, to the Hebrew mind (and God's mind), the purpose of clothing is to cover our nakedness. Why all of the trouble? What's wrong with nudist colonies, nude beaches, public breast-feeding, and so forth? I'll mention two things. Well, first of all, God's Word says that we're not to look upon the nakedness of anyone of the opposite sex who is not our spouse- or at least we can infer it clearly from Scripture. For example, Leviticus 18:6-18 says "No one of you shall approach anyone that is near of kin to him, to uncover {Hebrew- Galah- reveal} their nakedness {Hebrew- erva- nudity or shame}..." [see also Leviticus 20:11-20]. Nakedness is "shameful" in front of the opposite sex (outside of marriage) according to God's Word. This happened after the Fall of man and is still the same today. Please carefully consider that following verses and let them shape your view toward public nakedness from the Lord's perspective, rather than the popular and ever changing customs/trends of this world. [Genesis 3:7] "Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves coverings." [Genesis 3:10] "So he said, I heard Your voice in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; and I hid myself." [Genesis 3:21] "Also for Adam and his wife the LORD God made tunics of skin, and clothed them." [Genesis 9:23] "But Shem and Japheth took a garment, laid it on both their shoulders, and went backward and covered the nakedness of their father. Their faces were turned away, and they did not see their father's nakedness." [Exodus 20:26] "Nor shall you go up by steps to My altar, that your nakedness may not be exposed on it." [Exodus 28:42] "And you shall make for them linen trousers to cover their nakedness; they shall reach from the waist to the thighs...that they do not incur iniquity and die. It shall be a statute forever to him and his descendants after him." NOTICE: nakedness is, at the very least, from our waist to thighs...according to Scripture. [Leviticus 20:17] "If a man takes his sister, his father's daughter or his mother's daughter, and sees her nakedness and she sees his nakedness, it is a wicked thing." So, let me reiterate this verse: he sees her nakedness, she sees his nakedness, they're not married, and so God says that it's a wicked thing. I didn't see any exceptions there for nude beaches or nudist camps...did you? Let's continue. [Isaiah 47:3] "Your nakedness shall be uncovered, yes, your shame will be seen." [Ezekiel 16:36] "Thus says the Lord GOD: Because your filthiness was poured out and your nakedness uncovered in your harlotry with your lovers..." [Ezekiel 23:18] "She revealed her harlotry and uncovered her nakedness. Then I alienated Myself from her, as I had alienated Myself from her sister." [Micah 1:11] "Pass by in naked shame..." [Nahum 3:5] "Behold, I am against you, says the LORD of hosts; I will lift your skirts over your face, I will show the nations your nakedness, and the kingdoms your shame." [2 Corinthians 5:2-4] For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed... if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked... For we who are in [this] tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed..." [Revelation 3:17] "Because you say, 'I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing'--and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked--I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed" [Revelation 16:15] "Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame." That was just a partial list of Scriptures having to do with general public nakedness. I cut out all of the ones that pretty much repeated the same thing. Now let's have a look at many of the Scriptures which not only directly and intimately link a woman's breasts with her "waste to thigh" nakedness, but that also show that a woman's breasts are sensual/arousing or holy (set apart as precious for marriage) in nature. [Genesis 49:25] "Blessings of the breasts and of the womb." [Proverbs 5:19] "As a loving deer and a graceful doe, Let her breasts satisfy you at all times; And always be enraptured with her love." [Hosea 2:2] "Bring charges against your mother, bring charges; for she is not My wife, nor am I her Husband! Let her put away her harlotries from her sight, and her adulteries from between her breasts" [Ezekiel 23:3] "They committed harlotry in Egypt, they committed harlotry in their youth; their breasts were there embraced, their virgin bosom was there pressed." [Ezekiel 23:21] "Thus you called to remembrance the lewdness of your youth, when the Egyptians pressed your bosom because of your youthful breasts." [Song of Solomon 8:8] "We have a little sister, And she has no breasts. What shall we do for our sister in the day when she is spoken for?" In other words, they're worried because breasts are a very significant part of what arouses a future husband...and she is lacking. I showed this last set of verses so that you would definitely know that breasts are not just for feeding babies, according to the Word of God, and should be kept hidden for her husband alone. Notice that a woman's breasts (specifically her breast being touched or looked upon by anyone not her rightful husband) is directly associated with harlotry (porn). In other words...a woman's breasts are private to her baby, another woman, or her own husband only. READ Proverbs 5 and the Song of Solomon for even more about this. Again..."nakedness" IS "shameful" in front of the opposite sex, outside of marriage...according to God's Word. If you can read all of that and not be convinced nakedness in public is immodest and should be avoided if at all reasonably possible...what else can I say? Your heart is most certainly hardened in this area. None of this includes children, of course, because they do not yet have the mature body that causes these problems associated with open nakedness. What problems? Well, from what I can see in Scripture, adult nakedness (or the effect of it) is like a flame [Proverbs 6:27; Romans 1:27; 1 Corinthians 7:9]- it gives light by revealing our most private (holy, life nurturing, life giving, sensuous) areas (making us vulnerable) and it gives heat by sometimes inspiring shame (in ourselves) or sometimes desire (in others). There's a lot more to it, psychologically than that, but you get the point I'm sure. Now, in the context of public nakedness, two conditions naturally occur in fallen mankind: shame about our body (probably because it's without its former outward glory) and desire from the opposite sex- which can also lead to another type of shame (if a person is conscientious) that comes from being looked upon while naked by someone who was not invited to. [Exodus 32:25; Revelation 3:18; Revelation 16:15; 2 Samuel 6:20] So the shame is either due to being looked upon (violated) by someone with lustful desires, by being seen naked in the public, or because we are self-conscious (due to fallen/flawed body). Public nakedness naturally produces some level of shame in the giver and desire or rejection in the receiver. Private nakedness, in the context of marriage (or mutual agreement), does not naturally produce shame based on desire- but I won't discuss the positive (marital) sides of nakedness (which do not apply to this discussion). Also, neither does private nakedness in the presence of the same sex or in front of a baby during breast-feeding cause such shame (well at least not in the same manner, when it comes to women seeing each other naked). Alright...enough analyzing of the stuff we already know, feel, and experience in life. The real point of this chapter is: how can a woman control this flame in a way that others don't get burned and also protects that which is private to her from shining out (her shame and her desire causing privacy being exposed) for the public to see? Well God showed us by giving Adam & Eve clothing in Genesis 3. He also made extra effort to help women understand more specifically by revealing the heart of the matter in scriptures like 1 Timothy 2:9. Here are a few questions to test the health of our conscience and see if we have a clean conscience or if we need to pray to the Lord for more sensitivity/healing there: 1) Is it right for a woman to strip down to her underwear, tying on new clothes, in the middle of a store aisle? If not. Why not? They pose in underwear advertisements, swimsuit magazines, and Victoria Secret billboards. If the pictures of woman in panties and bras can be posted in the store aisles/news papers (ad's for underwear) and that's acceptable, then why wouldn't it be acceptable for a woman go ahead and strip down to her underwear (in that same aisle) to try on clothes? Why not strip down anywhere? Shouldn't it be her right as well? 2) How about is it ok for women to walk around town in their underwear? They often do this at the beaches, gyms, figure skating, many sports, and other such activities or places (practically only covering the same areas that skimpy underwear cover). So what's the big deal? If it's good for one place, why not everywhere?[/color]

[quote]1) Is it right for a woman to strip down to her underwear, tying on new clothes, in the middle of a store aisle? If not. Why not? They pose in underwear advertisements, swimsuit magazines, and Victoria Secret billboards. If the pictures of woman in panties and bras can be posted in the store aisles/news papers (ad's for underwear) and that's acceptable, then why wouldn't it be acceptable for a woman go ahead and strip down to her underwear (in that same aisle) to try on clothes? Why not strip down anywhere? Shouldn't it be her right as well? 2) How about is it ok for women to walk around town in their underwear? They often do this at the beaches, gyms, figure skating, many sports, and other such activities or places (practically only covering the same areas that skimpy underwear cover). So what's the big deal? If it's good for one place, why not everywhere?[/quote] The difference between a bikini swimsuit and changing in a store is only based on societal standards. Consistency would say that if one is wrong, they both are. If one is okay, they both should be. Though technically both cover nakedness. I am curious: [quote]In other words...a woman's breasts are private to her baby, [b]another woman[/b], or her own husband only[/quote] If it was wrong for Noah's son to see his nakedness (so much so that he cursed his entire bloodline), why is it okay for one woman to see another naked woman? Is it okay for a man to see another naked man?

[b]serfofChrist92 wrote:[/b] [quote]If it was wrong for Noah's son to see his nakedness (so much so that he cursed his entire bloodline), why is it okay for one woman to see another naked woman? Is it okay for a man to see another naked man?[/quote] That verse isn't meant to say that men cannot see other men naked, but moreso points out that a man lying naked is in a bit of a shameful or embarrassing state (especially drunk and unconscious). So...the two sons that respected their father took pity on his embarrassing and incapacitated state by respectfully not looking upon his nakedness and covering him when he could not. The third son disrespected his father and rejoiced in his embarrassing stupor...basically staring and pointing at him laughing in his naked/shameful/embarrassing state (or at least, that was the nature of his uncaring attitude about it). That's why he was cursed. Kind of like how many of us look at paintings of Adam and Eve naked...but we don't bother to try to cover them. It's disrespectful. They hurried to cover themselves with fig leaves for a good reason...not to have their children some day drawing pornographic (naked) paintings of them WITHOUT the fig leaves. We're supposed to honor our mother and father...not distribute naked pictures of them to our friends. Just saying...

I can see the disrespect issue, but it doesn't negate that you just wrote that entire post to prove the single fact that being naked is shameful. Why is it okay for woman to see other woman naked? How about men to see men? Is public nudity only shameful when in the presence of the opposite sex? If so, doesn't that contradict your plethora of passages? They didn't specify the sex of the onlookers.

[quote]That verse isn't meant to say that men cannot see other men naked, but moreso points out that a man lying naked is in a bit of a shameful or embarrassing state (especially drunk and unconscious). So...the two sons that respected their father took pity on his embarrassing and incapacitated state by respectfully not looking upon his nakedness and covering him when he could not. The third son disrespected his father and rejoiced in his embarrassing stupor...basically staring and pointing at him laughing in his naked/shameful/embarrassing state (or at least, that was the nature of his uncaring attitude about it).[/quote] Th...thi... This is exactly right. I'm shocked that you were able to properly interpret that passage. I guess that means you won't take your findings and use them in an almost farcically unrelated way to make a point it doesn't even begin to address... [quote]That's why he was cursed. Kind of like how many of us look at paintings of Adam and Eve naked...but we don't bother to try to cover them. It's disrespectful. They hurried to cover themselves with fig leaves for a good reason...not to have their children some day drawing pornographic (naked) paintings of them WITHOUT the fig leaves. We're supposed to honor our mother and father...not distribute naked pictures of them to our friends. Just saying...[/quote] ...oh.

[color=#800080] Now we're going to be moving on to the area of female modesty, which goes even beyond that of mere nakedness alone: it's not just about covering the bare minimum (women's breasts and the area from waste to thigh). True care for modesty (from a Scriptural perspective) includes all of those areas that, when exposed, do naturally provoke a sexual desire or sexual shame. Because these areas of our body do naturally cause these reactions, we also treat these as private areas in women (because they should be protected and set apart from the public). Adam & Eve did a shabby job of trying to cover these areas with an apron/miniskirt type deal. Then God corrected their ignorance and provided robes to fully (in every practical way) cover those areas that provoke sexual shame or sexual desire. Do I need to be more specific? I think we're all pretty well aware of what areas we're talking about. As stated...they're different in effect and boundary for each gender, but are pretty obvious to those whose conscience and sensual desires are not desensitized. Such areas for a woman would include their thighs, arguably their mid-drift/navel area, any portion of their breasts (cleavage, bust, whatever you want to call it), or any portion of any private parts. Why did I stress the obvious- breasts? Because, our culture is now so desensitized that what we consider naked is only even less than the very bare minimum these days. We've gotten to the point where as long as the very tip of the breast isn't visible, it's not considered nakedness. Well the truth is that if any portions of a woman's breasts are exposed, then she is exposing her nakedness (her breasts are visible to the public eye). Scripture does not differentiate individual parts of a woman's breasts from others- it's all one private area. Now the reason I brought up "any portion of any private part" is because our culture is so desensitized that woman walk around in public (in bathing suits or similar outfits, at beaches, at pools, as swimsuit/underwear models, in sports competitions, etc.) with portions of their most private parts clearly exposed at the edges of their suits. They often attempt to disguise that their private (pubic) area is visible by shaving the exposed areas on each side, but the obvious truth still remains...woman (even many of those within the Body of Christ) are revealing portions of the most private area of their body (for all the world to see) and are so desensitized that they don't give it a second thought. They just shave the edges of their front bikini/panty area or tell guys they should look away from between their legs anyway. Here again, our worldly culture has influenced us to think that as long as the very, very, center most region of our private areas aren't exposed, it's not nakedness. The truth of the matter is, a healthy conscience will tell you that any portion of any private area (especially any private part) is exposing her nakedness. Am I saying those things out of legalism? No, it just makes natural good sense based on experience and based on the principle of "covering our nakedness" that we see in Scripture. I personally know these areas (if I allow myself to be open or gaze) cause these reactions to stir in me (of course I do the old "look away and pray" technique), but I've been around enough men (Christian and not) to know that this (the struggle with or giving into these set aflame desires) is the case with many of them. Now there are a few different categories of men who don't seem to have these feelings (desires) when they encounter a woman's nakedness. The first type is desensitized and can't even feel (in the form of desire) the affect it's having on him (although it is still affecting/corrupting his heart and searing his conscience none the less). If you are the type of man that passively exposes yourself to pornography (including any form of public nakedness or immodesty) through movies, magazines, TV, your job, at the beach, or the like- then you would fit into the desensitized category. This often occurs either because a man was raised up gradually being exposed to such things or because he has been socially "educated" to think and feel (or not "feel" I should say) this way. A lot of men in the porn business and medical field are like this- they've seen so much nakedness in the form of porn (within a business/educational setting), that a naked woman doesn't even naturally phase them anymore (at least not that they can feel). You see, within a person with a sensitive conscience, desire causes pain when it's something bad for you and it causes pleasure when it's something good for you. Desire is just a response to stimuli. This desire either causes you to want to back away from the object (in the case of pain) or to actually draw closer to that object (in the case of pleasure). For instance, when you're touched by an object, your body may respond in pain or it may respond with a feeling of pleasure. If something harmful touches you (attempts to enter your heart, in this case) then the body's response is called pain (negative desire). This negative desire demands a reaction: to back away from the object. Pain should not be ignored or prevented (desensitized)- its source (or the reason for the pain) should be dealt with. God gave us pain so that we could immediately focus on what is harming us and so that we would not just ignore it- we need to deal with the problem (harmful images of nakedness) if we want the pain (harmful desires) to go away. If it's harmful to us, we need to feel the desire so that we can immediately take care of the problem (by looking away, praying, taking thoughts captive, guarding our hearts, and so on). A lot of men do the opposite, because it just makes their life easier (it seems) in the long run. They look and look and look (probably from childhood up or for education/job related tasks) until the desire doesn't seem to be there anymore (not realizing that their conscience has been seared and now these images are just passing right into their heart- causing harm to their very sense of true intimacy and many other areas of their inner being). Here's a point to consider for all of you men who choose to passively expose yourself to such things: would it be ok for you to sit in a woman's room (who you are not married to) and watch her get undressed (even with her permission)- or even worse, watch her have intimate relations with some guy? In the name of scientific research, of course. Then why are we willing to be a "Peeping Tom" when we're watching movies/TV, looking at popular magazines (you know the ones on the grocery checkout aisle), or other such material? Let's not be such a loose-minded men, but let's instead respect women's bodies- whether they do themselves or not. God wants her to respect His gift to her and her husband, so we should respect that as well. Guard your heart and determine to put no wicked thing (pornographic image) before your eyes. [Psalm 101:3] Will Jesus be able to say to you on that great day of His Coming..."I was naked, and you clothed me" [Matthew 25:36-43] or will you have gone your entire Christian life ignoring other fellow sisters in Christ who needed you to show them what it means to even be clothed in the first place? It's one thing to clothe a woman who knows she's in need, but it's an even greater service to show a woman that she is in need of clothing in the first place. Many a sister in Christ is walking around in blind nakedness before the Church and before the World...are you doing your part to help them to find covering for their nakedness by at least showing them what it even means to be modestly dressed in the first place? Or will you just pass on by and let her continue to expose herself, out of fear of offending them for a moment of time. If our Christian forefathers had such a selfish and desensitized mindset, we would have people of African and Native American descent still walking the streets bare breasted (naked) even today. The second type of man, who doesn't seem to struggle so much with desire when he encounters harmful images of nakedness, is the one who never allows himself to be passively exposed: to nudity through movies, magazines, TV, on his job, and so on. Because of this, his conscience is so healthy and his heart is so pure, harmful nakedness does not even have a chance to get into his heart and cause such damage- so no desire (causing pain) is felt because these images were dealt with and not entertained (or taken to heart) in the first place. In other words, this man does not allow himself to be opened up to harm through entertaining himself by watching such movies, TV shows, magazines, and similar material. So when he does encounter these images in the public arena (where he has little choice), he has his guard up and his conscience is prepared. His conscience is so healthy (because he exercises it and doesn't ignore it or sear it) that it rejects these images almost sub-consciously (automatically). It's well exercised because he did not abuse it by entertaining himself with movies, magazines, and TV shows that contained such things. He doesn't play with fire, but he disciplines himself to know how to handle a fire when it imposes without him choosing to allow it to be in front of him in the first place. Yet, if this man was to choose to start opening himself up by looking at such entertainment (or by not looking away when he encounters such images in public), then he too will eventually become desensitized. Otherwise, he has a built up resistance and is still naturally sensitive (which is designed for healthy intimacy with his wife). These are the types of men that are able to go, as missionaries, into cultures where the woman walk around partially nude (such as in AIDS torn Africa) and are able to minister there- because they have the inner strength of resistance not to look at these areas of women's bodies or to allow their eyes to wander. Yet, not all men who choose to be missionaries prepare their heart in this way and they sadly also suffer by losing natural sensitivity to these things in their heart (much like most doctors do). Ok, I don't mean to put all men into two categories, but that's just the two categories that I see applying to this subject. Keep in mind that the two categories actually overlap here and there. Alright, before we continue along this path, I wanted to bring another thought out- that may have crossed your mind. What if a man is looking at a revealing image of a woman they are completely not attracted to? I would just simply say: then it should be that much easier to look away. Just because a man is not attracted to this person does not make him seeing her nakedness (or her showing him her nakedness) a healthy thing. Otherwise, that would mean it's ok for an "ugly" woman to walk the streets in the nude (after all, no one is lusting after her). How about breastfeeding (with an exposed breast) in public? Some would argue that this is not lust inducing and therefore is not pornographic, but as we've already seen, that is not the issue. It is still wrong and harmful to all parties involved. If you want to take that logic even further, then it would be ok for an "ugly" (non lust inducing) married couple to star in sexually explicit videos (for educational purposes, of course). Now I'm being facetious, and I would never call someone "ugly," but I just wanted to show that line of logic leads to some very bad conclusions. So, where are we going with all of this? Well, let's start with another helpful (though, of course, not complete) guideline for the ladies: cover any area that you're not comfortable with a stranger putting his hands on you there (because although men may not be touching you with their hands, they are touching you with their eyes). So...if you're not comfortable with a stranger putting his hands on even your bare back, then you should probably cover it. For men, a woman's body often draws forth burning and driving desires (in the form of lust)...yet for women, lusting over a man's body tends to be much less common or captivating. We find seemingly countless examples of this principle in the world today as the overwhelming majority of hardcore pornographic magazines, strip clubs, and videos are for the purpose of men looking at the female body (not vice versa). Women tend to lust more based on their thoughts/fantasies of a man rather than their visual stimulation toward his physical body. This is why so many men are utterly & desperately addicted to pornographic imagery, but most women (who may more rarely have a problem with lusting after men) just tend to view it in passing and without really being driven by it. Due to this effect a woman can have on a man (and I'm sure for many other reasons), the Scriptures are very clear when it comes to how woman ought to adorn themselves...so that's my next focus here. Now would be a good time to move on to our Scripture of choice for this chapter: 1 Timothy 2:9.[/color] __________ [i][Song of Solomon 4:10-12] "How fair is thy love, my sister, my wife! how much better is thy love than wine!"[/i] [url]http://spiritledintimacy.com[/url]

[color=#0000FF][b]serfofChrist92 wrote:[/b] [quote]I can see the disrespect issue, but it doesn't negate that you just wrote that entire post to prove the single fact that being naked is shameful. Why is it okay for woman to see other woman naked? How about men to see men? Is public nudity only shameful when in the presence of the opposite sex? If so, doesn't that contradict your plethora of passages? They didn't specify the sex of the onlookers.[/quote][/color] Shame and porn or two different things. Shame is something that is natural for all of us to experience when we're naked in front of a stranger. Psychologically, this is just our self conscious awareness that we are in a fallen (flawed) state. This shame is naturally masked (over powered) when we are uncovering ourselves in a state of intimacy (in marriage) or when we have become accustomed to being naked in front of an individual (such as our wife or husband). But just because one does not any longer experience the natural shame, when they are naked in public, does not mean their nakedness is any less pornographic. For example, porn stars are so used to being naked in front of the public...they no longer feel the natural shame in that context that they rightly should. If we all followed the Scripture and only allowed our nakedness to be revealed in a marriage or same sex context...then we would still naturally feel the shame we should feel when being naked in public. That is the difference. One does not equal the other, but shame should be naturally experienced in every situation in which one is uncovering themselves pornographically. Check out Leviticus 18 for examples of who we should naturally not want to expose the nakedness of. Also, one example to prove the the Bible supports men seeing men naked...it was portrayed as a good thing for men to circumcise men. One example to prove that the Bible supports women seeing women naked...only female midwives were used during birth. One example to prove the Bible supports women being naked in front of infants...breast feeding being considered a good thing. These are just quick examples of what really should be common sense, or should I say common conscience. But common sense is, sadly, no longer common and now needs to be explained to most of us from scratch. [color=#0000FF][b]BrotherReed wrote:[/b] [quote]Th...thi... This is exactly right. I'm shocked that you were able to properly interpret that passage. I guess that means you won't take your findings and use them in an almost farcically unrelated way to make a point it doesn't even begin to address...[/quote] [/color] Actually I did make the point that this verse is another example of how nakedness is portrayed in the Bible as being a shameful and embarrassing state in public...and even in general (because of our fallen physical and mental state). There are exceptions for times of intimacy (which mask this shame with passion) as well as in an environment in which one has become comfortable over time (such as in a marriage relationship)...but the point is that it is now, since the fall, shameful and embarrassing to be naked in public.

Yeah I had a feeling you'd fall back on that, but that isn't actually what you said initially, which is why it was still correct. Noah was in an embarrassing situation and Ham reacted in a way that was disrespectful to his father. That point is not that nudity is by necessity shameful, only that Noah was in that state as a result of his lack of self control and didn't intend to be seen sans clothing.

I think you have an unhealthy obsession with nudity, porn, and sex. You should find something else to talk about.

[b]Son_Of_Fire wrote:[/b] [quote]I think you have an unhealthy obsession with nudity, porn, and sex. You should find something else to talk about.[/quote] I, on the other hand, have a healthy obsession with it... (hello) Hey, while Brandon's away, someone had to say it... :P