^ Applauded both of you. Take my upvotes.

[color=#0000FF][b]BrotherReed wrote:[/b] [quote]Yeah I had a feeling you'd fall back on that, but that isn't actually what you said initially, which is why it was still correct. Noah was in an embarrassing situation and Ham reacted in a way that was disrespectful to his father. That point is not that nudity is by necessity shameful, only that Noah was in that state as a result of his lack of self control and didn't intend to be seen sans clothing.[/quote][/color] I think you miss the obvious (self evident) inference within verses like these. Yes, the overall lesson of the story is about disrespecting his father...but it can still be reasonably assumed (by the way his respectful sons handled the situation) that they were doing so out of a common sense knowledge that their father having his nakedness exposed is an embarrassing state. It really should not be a difficult concept for readers to understand because we all have experienced such embarrassment at some point in our life, I'm sure. It's just the natural shame we feel due to our fallen state.

[color=#800080]Continuing on to the subject of modesty and the particulars that I've been promising to get into... From the King James Version (with Greek in {}) reads: "In like manner also, that women adorn {Greek- Kosmeo- this word literally means "to snuff (as in the flaming wick of a candle)"} themselves in modest {Greek- Kosmios- of good behavior, orderly} apparel {Greek- Katastole- a deposit (into clothing); costume}; with shamefacedness {Greek- Aidos- bashfulness} and sobriety {Greek- Sophrosune- sanity or self-control}; not with braided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works." There are a few points I would like to pull out of these scriptures: First and foremost, realize (based on the context of the surrounding passage) this verse is referring to how woman should adorn themselves in public. Also we should understand why (at first glance), if you don't understand the culture and Hebrew mindset, it appears this verse is saying that wearing too little clothing is not much worse than wearing too much clothing. Either way, it is a matter of the heart- so they are equal in that sense. But I would definitely argue that it is even far more harmful to be indecent than to be overly adorned. So then...why was modesty in dress, as it pertains to not covering enough, not more often stressed specifically in the New Testament? This was simply because it was not as big of a problem back then. Even the woman of heathen cultures tended to dress modest in public back then. The main problem, in those days, was woman wearing too much (being flashy and gaudy). Yet, in our own culture and just in the last 100 years, moral/modesty based standards (especially in the Church) have changed drastically on the opposite side of the spectrum. If the average person in America (in the early 1900's) would have seen the way the average woman dresses (in modern America) they probably would assume she has mental issues or she is obviously a prostitute. In a very real sense, they would be right. The crazy thing is that even prostitutes dressed more modestly in public, back then, than the average American woman dresses publicly today. If Paul was around (during the early 1900's), he probably still would have wrote America along the same lines as he did Timothy in his day- admonishing women to be modest (with a sense bashfulness) and not to focus on wearing too much outward adornment. Yet, if Paul was around today, I'm sure he'd have a very different message for the women of the Church in America- regarding their extreme LACK of covering. I can only hope and pray that the message I'm giving here will be in that same spirit and in accord with what the Lord is saying to this generation. So that being said, I'm going to be concentrating on the first part of this verse- because that's a problem the Church has in our culture (our generation). The first thing I'd like to point out is what that word translated "adorn" meant to the Hebrew/Greek mind. As seen in the Greek translation above, it literally gives the picture of a person "snuffing" or covering (to extinguish) a flame of a candle. As I said earlier, to the Hebrew mind, nakedness was a fire that needed to "snuffed" by clothing. So we see that this verse, at its very root, is referring to properly covering a woman's nakedness (the flaming fire of her naked feminine form). In other words...this verse is telling women, who should already be faithfully covering (adorning) their nakedness, with what heart motivation they should go about doing it. So now that's where I want to continue...what should the heart of woman be toward modesty in dress and how should that heart bear fruit (good works) into her life, specifically into the way she adorns herself? Well, let's start with the basics. How should a woman adorn herself? "Modestly" (of good behavior, orderly), with "shamefacedness" (as a bashful person naturally does not show off her body), and with "sobriety" (maintaining self control, sane). Let me relate each one separately. By adorning herself "modestly," she will not express or provoke bad (anything outside of good) behavior (such as prideful, covetous, lustful, or any harmful thoughts/actions) and she will be covered in a way that is decent (adequately covering those areas that are private or that naturally ignite sexual desire). She should order her way of dressing in a manner that only provokes good attention (behavior). You see, it's great to be seen as pure or stylish or beautiful or lovely or unique- that is good attention. [Philippians 4:8] But it's not good to be seen as ostentatious or indecent or an object of lust or loose (one who freely gives away to the public what should be kept private)- that is bad attention. This is what moderation is all about- balance to achieve good results. Then Paul gets even more specific by saying a woman should maintain modesty with "shamefacedness." This is why you hear some woman (actresses), who prostitute their nakedness in movies, saying that they're "not ashamed" of their body. They are basically denying the natural shame they should have as beings who lost their former physical glorified bodies in the Garden. They are also actually saying that they're willing to show off their naked body to the public and that it doesn't bother their conscience. This is what the Bible calls harlotry (Greek: porne) and is the opposite at heart to true modesty in a woman. So, ladies, if you find that your motivation for dressing in a particular outfit (in public) is to show off/attract attention to some private or sexual desire provoking area of your body (such as your cleavage, your thighs, or the shape of your bottom), then you know that's one of the signs that you're not being modest. Even further still, if you find that you're dressing passively in a way that is not consciously and purposely avoiding such attention (or the temptation in yourself to show your body off in such a way), then you're dressing in the same spirit of immodesty as well. Whether by purposeful effort or by passive negligence, the same level of immodestly finds its expression. Then Paul takes it yet further by saying woman should maintain modesty with "sobriety." This brings out two points: Are you honestly dressing in a way that you can constantly control whether or not your nakedness is revealed? Can you honestly do your daily activities with such confidence that you will not lose control over what your clothing (or lack thereof) reveals? Women are called to dress themselves with sobriety (soberness), not as a drunkard who too easily loses control of things they should naturally have control over. There are certain outfits that women wear which are unrealistic if they're truly trying to be modest- they're just too loose, too tight, too form fitting, or too see through. There's no way that you can honestly expect to be conscious constantly to guard that short dress or that loose topped shirt or those huge gaps between the buttons on your shirt. You have to be honest and admit that you are likely to be distracted (thereby losing control with such risky outfits). What's the solution? Dress modestly by wearing things that cover enough and fit well enough that you don't even have to be conscious of them. You should be able to do all of your regular activities without even having to think about your clothes and what might get exposed. If (in order to stay modest) a woman is having to watch her positions and movements when she's just hanging out (doing her normal thing), then you can be assured that she's dressed immodestly (she's not truly in control). So finally, the last point I would bring out of this word translated "sobriety" is that it is literally a sign of insanity to be in public with your nakedness revealed. In modern society, these people are still called "flashers" if it's done for free on the streets. Just think about it (even according to our modern culture's accepted norms/conscience)...if a woman were to just come out and start walking the streets completely naked, wouldn't you think she's not in her right mind? Of course, but it's just another degree of the same insanity to walk around in public partially naked as well. That's even according to our current cultures seared conscience. I dare say that if the average woman (of today's American culture) were able to go out into public (just dressed in the common outfits of today) around the year 1901 (or even years prior and back to the days when Paul was alive), when people's conscience was healthier in this area, she would probably be labeled as "not in her right mind." All of us suffer from not walking in a right mind to one degree or another (due to our fallen nature), but it should be our heart (as believers) to have the mind of Christ whenever we can (loving God and loving our neighbor). We (the Church in America) have become so desensitized. May our eyes be opened and our hearts be unhardened- so that the Holy Spirit can heal our soul and our conscience. We need to be sensitive- not as the world dictates, but how God naturally designed us to be. [b]A concluding thought for the ladies:[/b] Please don't allow yourself to play the role of a prostitute, even raping and assaulting the heart of men who pass by and who see those areas of your body that bring about a natural passionately captivated response in him which he normally should only have toward his wife alone. When you dress immodestly in public, you are acting in a spirit of deception toward all men around you...your outwardly uncovered form says "hello, I'm your wife and I'm ready to make love to you." A woman being unclothed before a man (such as when wearing a bikini or any other immodest outfit) starts a natural chain reaction inside that normally SHOULD occur when his wife unveils her naked form before him. If you are not his wife, you are a prostitute to him and (whether you mean to or not) are deceiving his God given natural sense of what should be the trigger for him to flow forth with passion (mentally, emotionally, and physically) toward his wife. God has designed it so that only his wife should appear before him in a sensually arousing uncovered form, so it is only natural that a man be drawn toward a woman (in an intimately minded way) when she uncovers aspects of her body before him that he is normally supposed to assume only his wife would and then flow forth with unabated loving passion toward her. You (whether it be out of selfishness, ignorance, or purposeful seduction) are playing a part in deceiving and taking advantage of the good aspects of a man that God originally designed to ignite a fiery passion toward his wife in the marriage chamber. You cannot be surprised when men gawk, whistle, talk sensually, become touchy/feely, or just simply burn silently with lust toward your immodest form (when wearing cleavage revealing, tight fitting, see-through, or thigh high displaying clothes)...his natural sense of passion for a woman that should be his wife (or else she wouldn't be so undressed before him) has been ignited in a way that most men won't have the discernment or self control to recognize the deception/prostitution for what it truly is and then guard their heart effectively against its harmful (raping) effects. Some men resent being teased in such ways (dressing like his wife, but not willing to be fully treated like his wife) and will lash back with "dirty"/affectionate comments or may even return the unholy favor by trying to force themselves on such women (sexually). Other men are satisfied with just buying her goods visually and will thank her for servicing him (his lusts) in that way- perhaps with a friendly smile, a pleasant glance, or a daily visit to her cubical to see how she's doing (what she's wearing) each day. Many men, in a false attempt to avoid such temptation and confusion altogether (so, for example, they can look casually upon female friends at the beach or on the job and not feel the naturally God given reaction toward them), will make the terrible mistake of purposely numbing their sensitivity in their emotions and heart- so that they just simply don't feel at all in this area anymore. This is a very selfish, lazy, and ungodly way of dealing with the problem...in that this also deadens their sensitivity to the very aspect of their being that ignites and maintains a passion toward their own wife's so naked form. Such a man is allowing immodest women to influence him to rob his own true wife of his naturally God given passions toward her own unveiled sensual form. Men in this state will then have to try to force (mentally "kickstart" ) this formerly natural reaction to their wife, when she begins to reveal herself before him, but by then his timing is always going to be off and she (his wife) will never be able to experience the naturally flowing harmony of Spirit Led passion as God designed to occur between those in the marriage bed. The only healthy way a godly man can truly deal with this situation is to follow Scripture: guard his heart, recognize that he is being assaulted/raped by a women who (knowingly or unknowingly) is operating in a spirit of prostitution (her offering some of the "goods" that only a wife should offer, but with no marriage covenant made), take these images/thoughts captive, and pray that the Lord uproot every remnant of it that found its way into his heart- healing the damage done. This is a moment by moment battle and is the least lazy approach, but such is the fight that God has called us to- according to His Word. Such an approach is the only way a man is able to keep his heart from the harmful effects of the "strange woman" who prostitutes herself in immodesty (knowingly or unknowingly) at the expense of other men's marriage around her. Please, ladies, don't allow yourself to play the harlot in this way and to cause such tormenting battles/struggles to occur in the hearts of godly men who wish to faithfully protect their own marital passions. Isn't it worth it to save your most holy, precious, and private areas of your body for your husband? Don't allow the most intimate aspects of yourself to be shared with a man who has not even given himself to be one with you (in marriage). I encourage you to start saving yourself fully for him, so that you can be his "well of fresh running water." [Proverbs 5:15] Don't let other men drink from and trample upon the waters of his well- keep it fresh for him alone. If you've already shared yourself through immodesty, pray for cleansing and healing- for both you and your husband (toward you), so that God may restore what has been tainted. Jesus did change water to wine after all. Perhaps He may do the same for you, in His great mercy. [b]A concluding thought for the men:[/b] Isn't it worth it to save this area of your heart and soul for your wife? Cast those "strange" women out of your inner man. Those places in you are only meant for your wife. "Drink waters out of your own cistern (of a pure marriage relationship), and fresh waters out of your own well...rejoice in the wife of your youth...let her breasts satisfy you at all times..." [Proverbs 5:15-19]. If you don't start praying that these images be uprooted out of you, as well as start guarding your eyes and heart against them, then you will not be able to have true intimacy with your wife as God created you to. There should only be made a place in your heart/soul for your wife's nakedness and the rest of those images from other "strange" women ("strangers" to your marriage bed) need to go. So I encourage you to stop putting wicked things before your eyes, start taking these thoughts captive, guard your heart, and pray that these images be uprooted from your inner man. Protect the quality of your intimate relationship with your wife (and with God) by not allowing these images to stay or set roots into your heart. Everybody should read Proverbs 5. This drives the point home so very well- if you look at it in the context of this discussion. Save your private self for your marriage partner. Here are some additional thoughts, from Scripture, for the ladies to consider: Walking in love (considering the thoughts and weaknesses of others)... [Romans 13:10; 1 Corinthians 8:1] Not being a stumbling block (by not covering yourself)... [1 John 2:10] If your eye causes you to stumble (or your brother to stumble- love him as yourself) then remove it (for this subject: stop wearing that which is causing him to stumble)... [Matthew 5:29] Woe unto him who causes one of these to stumble (our Lord is very serious about loving people enough not to put a stumbling block before them). Do your part to not harm the heart/soul of your fellow brother- and (Lord willing) his future wife... [Matthew 18:6][/color] __________ [i][Song of Solomon 4:10-12] "How fair is thy love, my sister, my wife! how much better is thy love than wine!"[/i] [url]http://spiritledintimacy.com[/url]

[b]memnonkarana wrote:[/b] [quote] Hey, while Brandon's away, someone had to say it... :P[/quote] I would expect that from Brandon.

[color=#0000FF][b]Son_Of_Fire wrote:[/b][quote]I think you have an unhealthy obsession with nudity, porn, and sex. You should find something else to talk about.[/quote][/color] I'll eventually move on to other subjects of interest, but these are the issues most modern American churches are blind to these days...so it's most important these principles be discussed, given the vary serious nature and effects of porn. It's a flame that burns those who are touched by it and Christians need to be warned of the subtle harms involved. Porn is the only sin that the Bible actually literally warns us to flee from. [1 Corinthians 6:18] I choose to take that warning seriously. __________ [i][Song of Solomon 4:10-12] "How fair is thy love, my sister, my wife! how much better is thy love than wine!"[/i] [url]http://spiritledintimacy.com[/url]