So wait? If I show the tiniest amount of cleavage, does that make me a non-Christian? What complete and utter BS.

[b]THeMadHatter wrote:[/b] [quote]Thanks, Ben. :)[/quote] de nada :) [b]KattyKit wrote:[/b] [quote]So wait? If I show the tiniest amount of cleavage, does that make me a non-Christian? What complete and utter BS.[/quote] To be fair, he didn't say that. By his standard, you just might not be a "discerning and self respecting Christian" woman.

Still callin' BS on that one.

Ok, it's obvious that we're going to have to step back a little bit and discern between a few things, because there's many assumptions being made about me that don't line up with the reality of the way I think. I'm including this just, basically, to help put us on the same page- to give you a picture of what I'm envisioning when I talk about the mind, heart, soul, conscience, spirit, and so on. I base a lot of this on Scripture and some on reason. Since we're thinking of invisible aspects of our self, by using visible images we can understand, it's expected that we’ll only have a dim (incomplete) picture of what these parts of our being actually look and function like. But, so you know what I mean when I write about these things, I'm adding this portion to the book. Now, I've been addressing these three aspects of our being this entire time and most of us probably don't have a clear, Scriptural, picture of what our "being" is composed of. This gets into areas that the Scriptures dimly touch on, but let's try to understand based on the Word. Picture this...Man is composed of a body, soul, and spirit. [1 Thessalonians 5:23] The soul (Greek- psuche) is composed of our mind, will, and emotion...just look up soul in a concordance and see how it's used throughout Scripture. Now as for the heart (Greek- kardia), we also have a good example in Scripture. [Matthew 13:19-23] Where does the heart fit into our being? That's a mystery, but we do know that our mind guards and sows seeds into our heart. So we see, from Matthew 13, that the heart is the "soil" or garden (in females) or ground or "field" (in males) of our being- the place where seeds (thoughts) are planted and grow. This is why a heart that is hardened to the things (seeds, Word, thoughts) of God cannot bear good fruit. Can you plant a seed in hard, scorched, ground? Now, like any soil, the heart is indiscriminate as far as what it will cause or allow to grow (whether it be poisonous or healthy). So we must be careful to guard our hearts (watch the seeds we're letting in by taking "every thought captive to the Lordship of Jesus Christ" [2 Corinthians 10:5] and by "renewing your mind by the washing of the Word...so that you may prove what is the acceptable and perfect will of God, even the thing that is good and perfect in His sight for you" ) . [Romans 12:2] Whatever seeds you let in, will germinate, and bear fruit into your life ("the issues of life" ) . [Proverbs 4:23] With our mind we know, but with our heart we believe. [Romans 10:10] For with the heart man believes unto righteousness (the fruit of belief in God's Word). Whatever you let into your heart, you will believe (the fruit will manifest into your life and your actions will reveal & follow it). Belief is neutral by nature. You can believe (grow) a lying seed or a truth seed- whatever you choose to plant (let into your heart). Belief, in the heart, is what drives our actions- not knowledge, in our minds. Whatever seed you receive (allow to come into your heart and germinate) will enter this same type of heart-soil as beliefs do and will connect you to its fruit. Now, don't let yourself be confused by the modern English use of the word belief- which would equal knowledge. In Scripture, belief [Greek- pisteuo] has more to do with what your heart is open to (bringing to fruition)- not just what you know, in your mind. If you allow God's good seed into your heart, your belief (the growth element in the ground of your heart) will break that seed, draw out its life, and connect you to its fruit (joy, hope, love, peace, righteousness, and the like). But if we allow Satan's seed into our heart, our belief will connect us to its fruit (hate, sin, death, and the like). If you allow porn seeds into your heart, belief will connect you to the fruit (lust, emotional damage, loss of true intimacy, and so on). Whatever seed you allow into your heart, the belief element will bring it to maturity, and it will bear fruit into your life. We've all experienced this...we know (with our mind) that we should not do something, but our heart urges us to do it anyway- that belief element (now forming a stronghold over time) in the soil of your heart has opened the seed and has connected you to its fruit. So, regardless of what you "know" in your mind, the seeds (words, thoughts, images) being germinated in your heart will be what drive you. What you sow, you will reap. The more you practice them, the stronger the hold and drive will be. Here's an example in Scripture: Eve knew (in her mind) that, if she ate the fruit, "she would surely die." Enter Satan: "hath God said" (bad seed number one) and "surely you will not die, for God knows that in the day that you eat of it you will be like Him, knowing good from evil" (bad seed number two). Eve let her guard down (because Satan entertained her curiosity), Satan's seeds were allowed into her heart, her heart then opened that seed with its supernatural growing force (belief). What happened then? The fruit of Satan's seeds choked out the fruit of God's seeds [Matthew 13:22]- she was more interesting in (entertained by) the things (cares) of this world. In whom did she believe? Satan. She knew (mind) that she would surely die (because God said it), but she believed (accepting into her heart) the lie. Which one most impacted her decision, her mind or her heart? Her works revealed whom she believed and whom she was exercising her faith to connect with. Adam connected with what she was connected to and fallen mankind has been connected to the Devil (their "father") and disconnected from God ever since. [John 8:44] Yet, praise be to the Lord Jesus Christ...we can now receive the fullest truth into our hearts, believing on Him for our salvation, and connecting to all of the promises of God by faith as we are led & assured by His Spirit to cry "Abba, Father." [Galatians 4:6] This is what is meant when God says things like "guard your heart...for out of it flow the issues of life." It doesn't matter what you know or think (in your mind), if you let bad seeds into your heart, the belief element will grow it and it will "flow" out to the rest of your life. Just as another reference, 1 Corinthians 5:6 pictures the heart as unleavened bread. This image helps to show us that "a little leaven" (similar to Matthew 13's bad seed) will ferment (choke out the good within) the whole lump (heart). So Paul was telling them to repent (change their mind) and cast out (take captive) this fornicator (bad seed) out of their midst (away from their heart). He was basically saying the same things as Matthew 13's representations: the church as the heart, the sinful man as the seed, and was telling them that this seed will grow (to choke out) the good seed & fruit around it. Watch out whom (or "what" ) you let into the fellowship of your heart. Now, about the conscience...as far as I can tell from Scripture, the conscience can be envisioned as the veil between our soul and our heart. It seems to be a filter of sorts against bad seed (it bounces the bad seed back to our mind for re-evaluation), but we are able to force (burn) sinful seeds through if we choose (will) to. After the same bad seed is forced (burned) through enough times, our conscience no longer tries to reject it (it starts failing to be able to heal properly as scars or seared areas develop)- the seed just flies right into the soil. Both the mind and emotions seem to interact with our heart, but we are focusing on the mind's interaction right now. Sin is like a burning fire, so the more you allow sin based seeds into your heart, the more your conscience gets burned (seared). [1 Timothy 4:2] "Can a man take fire into his bosom and not be burned?" [Proverbs 6:27; 1 Timothy 2:4] You see...your conscience isn't seared because of what enters your mind (that is where the battle takes place- to take it captive), but once you passively accept sin (porn for example) into your heart...it burns that part of your conscience (filtering veil). Yet (thankfully), just like the veil of our flesh, if we repent and stop allowing these fiery seeds to pass in...the fleshly veil of our conscience will try to heal itself. There's much more to cover on this subject, but this should be enough for us to relate these aspects of our being in the same way. A few more points...in Scripture I see that the Holy Spirit speaks to our spirit and then our spirit speaks to our mind, from its habitation in our hearts. The battle is in the mind: "for we wrestle (opposite of being passive) not against flesh and blood, but against spiritual darkness..." [Ephesians 6:12] and "Watch over (guard) your heart with all due diligence (don't be passive)." [Proverbs 4:23] You cannot guard if you do not know who or what the enemy is. What kind of watchman on the wall doesn't know what the enemy looks like (or pretends that he does not see them)? Imagine if the guard of a city was passive and just let the enemies slip right in. This is what God wants us to understand. YOU, guard your heart- not I (Father) or He (Holy Spirit) will guard your heart (the you is inferred). Take the enemies captive before they enter the city (your heart). If you take them captive in your mind, through the Name of Christ, the Holy Spirit will disarm them and lead them away in chains. [James 4:7] "Resist the Devil and he will flee." [I John 1:9] "If we [freely] admit that we have sinned {and} confess our sins, He is faithful and just (true to His own nature and promises) and will forgive our sins and [continuously] cleanse us from all unrighteousness [everything not in conformity to His will in purpose, thought, and action]." Once we, by our own free will, have chosen to let the enemy in (whether out of ignorance, passiveness, or wickedness) the Holy Spirit will not override our will. Once we decide to let the seed into our heart (by quenching and/or grieving the Holy Spirit with our mind) the laws of nature take over and that seed will grow. It works the same in our natural realm...once you make the decision to plant the marijuana plant, nature does its thing whether it's legal or not. So what happens when we are born again? Our spirit starts out, in this world, dead and our soul/heart is blind to the things of God ("for the things of God are foolishness to those who are perishing" [1 Corinthians 2:14]) until the Good seed (the Word) is spoken to our mind (a witness) and God's Spirit quickens (brings to life) our own spirit. What determines if the seed ("Gospel" ) in our mind bears the fruit of eternal life? It's whether our mind is open to plant it into our heart (whether there is a hardness of heart toward God). Once we let it into our hearts ("for with the heart man believes" [Romans 10:10]), redemption occurs. This seed which seemed dead to the world, now bursts forth with new and eternal life into the heart of all who so believe. [John 12:24] There are plenty of people, in churches, who know (in their mind) the truth- but it's those who let it into their heart that believe it and bear the fruit thereof (salvation, eternal life, holiness, and the like). The Holy Spirit will not force it into your heart (against your will) and He will not force you to guard your heart against sinful things after you're saved. He will just show you how not to let sin into your heart, how to take it captive, and how to give it to Him (through your mind/will). The choice is your own- the heart does not discriminate (no will). The battle is in the mind- the results, fruit, and spoils are in the heart. [1 Corinthians 14:24-25] I'm assuming that those who are reading this thread have an open (Truth hungry) heart already. I don't expect those who have not been "born again" to even understand it ("to those who are perishing it is foolishness" ) . [1 Corinthians 2:14] Also, I don't expect those who are "babes in Christ" (still nursing) to be able to digest it. I am expecting the believers who are hungry for solid food to take these principles and put them to work in their own lives. The babies will cry and push it away, while the lost will likely do their best to destroy such a message...yet again, such is our calling. Hopefully the Holy Spirit has confirmed this message to you and it has found a place in your heart. If, so, praise God. But remember, "faith (belief with response) comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God" as well as "Faith without works is dead...I by my works will show you my faith" [James 2:14-26] and let's work out our salvation with "fear and trembling." [Philippians 2:12] In other words, let's receive the truths about the freedom (salvation) we can have from the effects of pornography (because we are becoming aware of what it truly is) into our hearts and bear the fruit of purity. Yet, we must continue to work with those seeds (truths) by faith (responding to what is believed- the fruit) so that we can diligently maintain such victory in our lives & hearts. __________ [i][Song of Solomon 4:10-12] "How fair is thy love, my sister, my wife! how much better is thy love than wine!"[/i] [url]http://spiritledintimacy.com[/url]

[color=#0000FF][b]THeMadHatter wrote:[/b] [quote]You have such a high standard that you obviously have an ideal in mind, but are refusing to share that with us at all. Just saying negatives, No you don't want this, No, not that either, No you aren't saying that... So what ARE you getting at? It's a simple question: To YOU PERSONALLY, what does the ideal modest woman look like?[/quote][/color] MadHatter, it truly does seem like you are commenting solely based on the back and forth convos I've been having with individuals who likely have not actually read my full posts...rather than actually reading the content of my larger posts for yourself. I've already answered your question on a basic level...this thread was not meant to be focused on the subject of modesty, but on rather what is and is not porn. I'm getting into the subject of modesty (which goes beyond the concept of sheer nakedness) in the other thread entitled "What Is & Is Not Modest." My ideal is that women dress modestly (1 Timothy 2:9) and that is my standard as well, which includes not displaying their nakedness in public. Nakedness, as defined clearly in Scripture, includes the areas between the upper thigh to waist for both men and women...but additionally includes the breasts for women. Not a part of the breast, but the breasts- period. If you want to know my ideal for modesty more specifically, that will take more explaination so that you will know (from Scripture) what it means to be modest as a woman and why. That is what I'm laying out in the other thread. I'm not just going to raddle off descriptions of outfits that come to mind...you need to understand the reason behind what is modest or not modest. Then you will be able to apply the very same principles to all outfits and will know my "ideal" for all situations. [color=#0000FF][b]serfofChrist92 wrote:[/b] [quote]And I think her comment about the heathen worldly standard of dress being consistently in favor of breast-displaying was in reply to this comment: [quote][b]Even most worldly women dressed as modestly as I'm proposing[/b], but only those women who followed worldly trends would wear outfits that ever showed cleavage.[/quote][/quote][/color] I still think, overall throughout most of the so called Christian age of history, even worldly women tended to cover their breasts in public. The modesty of Christian women tended to be a good influence on the world in this way. This is just an observation, based on what I've seen in history and art depicting the average woman's manner of dress over the last 1800 years or so. I'm not saying that Scripture supports this claim, but moreso that this observation shows a good example of the more Biblical standards of modesty in previous generations. Our own standards of modesty should not be based on what's popular, but it was worth using as an example- from my point of view. [color=#0000FF][b]KattyKit wrote:[/b] [quote]So wait? If I show the tiniest amount of cleavage, does that make me a non-Christian? What complete and utter BS.[/quote][/color] Only if you think you're perfect and anyone who is a Christian has to maintain perfection. Otherwise, no...I'm just saying that such things will cause others around us to stumble and be hurt, as well as will only serve to spoil something so precious which should be saved for the adoring eyes of your husband. Any thing we do that is not in accordance with the Word will cause us to loose the blessings and good fruits associated with that aspect of our life, as well as will cause us to have to eat the bitter and rotting fruit that comes with not following such principles (such as strange men staring at your breast). In other words...it has nothing to do with whether you are a Christian or not, but moreso what manner of fruit you will be bearing as a Christian. I hope this clears things up a bit.

[b]KattyKit wrote:[/b] [quote]Still callin' BS on that one.[/quote] No need for profanity, I'm just sharing from my heart for those interested in the subject.

Profanity???

[b]KattyKit wrote:[/b] [quote]Profanity???[/quote] "BS." By the rulebook, partial/acronyms for prohibited words are prohibited as well. Last night in a mixture of sleep deprivation and apathy, I don't think either Chelsea nor I noticed/cared, but especially since another member has requested it, please don't use acronyms for cuss words.

Considering the s stands for stuff I don't see the problem but whatever.

Actually, it may to you, but that is not what it actually stands for...