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ROB\'S THESIS ON ROMANS 9

ROB1

8 year(s) ago

Aheemmm. In my most staunch and distinguished voice, I would like to say that I have prepared a thesis on Romans 9 that anyone who cares to may examine all they like. I'll only post scriptures 1-9 for now because these are the one's that will probably need the most attention. Ahheemmm, let's discuss, shall we??? B) Thesis Statement – This chapter displays Paul’s desire for the Jews to receive Christ, shows how God elected certain people for certain purposes (positive and negative) throughout history to bring to pass His divine plan and also reveals why the Israelites who fell away did so, because they did not seek righteousness by faith, but by the works of the Law. Romans 9:1-5 In this portion of the chapter, Paul is lamenting for his Jewish brethren and speaks of all of the good things God did with them. Paul makes it clear in verse 5 that God divinely chose the Israelite race to bring for the Christ according to the flesh (meaning Jesus’ race). Romans 9:6 Here Paul states that just because the Jewish people had all of this history with God and they still rejected the Christ didn’t mean the word of God was ineffective. He also states that just because a person was born in the nation of Israel physically didn’t mean they would be counted as member of the spiritual Israel (he also explains why the Israelites who fell away did so in verses 32-33). Romans 9:7-9 Continuing from verse 8, Paul states here that a person also wouldn’t be counted as a spiritual child of Abraham because they were the natural “seed” of Abraham (meaning because Abraham was their natural father). He specifies that through Isaac (not Ishmael) the seed would be called. (This word “seed” is referring to Jesus Christ.) Verse 8 further explains verse 7 by contrasting between the children of the flesh (meaning descendants of Ishmael) and the children of the promise (meaning descendants of Isaac). Verse 9 verifies this by naming the portion of the promise he was referring to, namely Sarah herself bearing Abraham a son.

ROB1

8 year(s) ago

I agree that we need to go back to fully understand what Romans 9 is saying, but maybe a little further than 8, more like to chapter 1. I've found that by reading all the way into 9 in one sitting gives us the correct perspective of Romans 9. I'm not gonna lie. If I read Romans 9 without knowing the rest of that letter plus other scriptures in the Bible, I would believe that the Calvinistic framework is totally correct and the only correct way to view the Bible. So we have to get a full understanding of what's being said to properly exegete that chapter. We just went over this chapter in our Bible study last week and we started in 6 and went to 9.

ROB1

8 year(s) ago

For the sake of time though, let's start at Romans 8:28 as you suggested. I'll put it up and exegete it and you tell me whether I'm right or wrong: Romans 8:28 [color=#0000FF]28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.[/color] From reading all of the passages in Romans 8 before this one, Paul is saying that God will cause all things (good and bad) to work together for the good of the people that love God (meaning the people that have chosen to believe the Gospel and submit to God's commandments). This promise is offered to those who God has called according to God's purpose. How's that?

ROB1

8 year(s) ago

I'll get back to this later on tonight. Just letting you know I saw it.

ROB1

8 year(s) ago

Ok bro, I have a few issues with some of your exegesis of Romans 8. Here they are: [quote=Monergism]Romans 8 is where we shall begin. First, we note that Paul makes several promises to the Roman Christians: first, that there is now no condemnation for them (v1), that God has set them free by the Spirit (v2), that they are not in the flesh but rather in the Spirit (v9), that they have been adopted as sons (v15), and that they are children of God and joint-heirs of all creation with Christ (v16-18), the redemption of their bodies which is most assuredly coming (v 23), that the Spirit prays for us in our weakness (v 26), that all things work for our good (v 28), that we shall most assuredly be glorified as surely as we are elect (v 29-30), that God is for us (v 31), that God will give us all things to enjoy (v 32), that nobody can bring a charge against God's elect (v 33), and that we are more than conquerors and that nothing shall ever separate us from God's love in Christ Jesus (v 35ff) Now, we have all of these promises laid out all throughout the eight chapter of Romans. Once again, the question must be raised by Paul's readers: "But didn't Israel have those promises? And furthermore, what is Israel's role in all of this? If God's done with Israel, will that mean that He could be done with us one day, too?" [/quote] 1) You speak as if the promises that were made to the Romans Christians (Jews and Gentiles) were unconditional, when in fact the word "if" is all throughout chapter 8. So I just wanted to verify whether or not you were trying to say those promises are conditonal or not. The first verse in chapter has a condition tied to it: Romans 8:1 [color=#0000FF]1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, [b]who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.[/b] [/color] Read verses 5-13. I'll post 13 here because it makes everything from 5 to 13 conditional: Romans 8:13 [color=#0000FF]13[b] For [u]if you[/u] live after the flesh[/b], ye shall die: [b]but[u] if ye[/u][/b] through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. [/color] 2) Since Paul had just told them in chapter 8 that those promises were conditional, he had already informed them of what it took to get in on the promises. In chapter 9 Paul starts explaining how God dealt with Israel for the sake of the Jewish Christians. Remember, Paul was basically "humbling" the Jews to discourage them from looking down on the Gentile Christians. In Chapter 9, Paul continues to get more specific in describing how God dealt with Israel and why the majority of the Jews were cut off. When Paul starts describing election, he wasn't speaking of general salvation, he was speaking of God electing people for service in His overall plan. So if we read from verse 4 to verse 15, we can see that Paul is speaking of God using Israel in His plan and he is reminding the Jews of God's soverignty, that He can choose whoever He wants for use in His plan. If this doesn't make sense to you, please explain why you believe Paul is answering a question the readers may have had about God being done with the Gentiles, when he already explained to them what they had to do individually to get in on God's covenant?

ROB1

8 year(s) ago

Cmon, let's not start that again. lol I could say since you believe God caused you to trust Jesus, that means you havent willfully done it, so you are still in your sins. I believe we have to choose to believe when we hear the Gospel and that God draws us to Jesus, but He doesn't make us accept Him. But let's talk about Romans 8 and 9 because I want to see if you can show me why you see what you see. The word "if" means on the condition of. So you believe that Romans 8 is saying that a Christian will always walk after the Spirit? So do you believe Christians sin? If you believe they sin, are you saying that a Christian is still walking in the Spirit even when they walk in sin? When you read Romans 8:13 Romans 8:13 [color=#0000FF]13For [color=#0000FF]if [u]you[/u] live after the flesh, ye shall die[/color]: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. [/color] Who's he talking about when he says "you" in verse 13? Everyone except Christians? To me it seems very clear that he is still talking to the Christians because a sinner cant obey the second half of the verse. What is the evidence that a person is truly believes the Gospel? Are saying it only takes a mental belief? I believe the Bible teaches that "having faith" is way more than a mental assention: Hebrews 3: [color=#800080]12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we are made partakers of Christ, [u][b]if we hold the beginning of our confidence[/b][/u] stedfast unto the end;[/color] And also: James 2: [color=#008000]21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 [b]Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, [u]and by works was faith made perfect[/u][/b]? [/color] So, yes its primarily by faith, but our works make our faith perfect. If we have no works then it means our faith has died and dead faith wont save anyone. Do I still sound "unsaved" to you?

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