Due to the popularity of similar threads, I thought I'd see if we couldn't focus or energies on more specific issues. This may be followed by such threads as "the feuds of Paul" (yep, there's more than Peter), "the foreign doctrines of Paul," etc.. depending on activity, and time to research. Of course, if someone else starts such threads, I'll do my best to take part, as well. For the sake of those who haven't followed the other threads, I will briefly state my general position: I do not doubt Paul's sincerity as a teacher, but I do doubt his authority as an apostle. I do not suggest removing his writings from the Bible, but I do recommend the reader always consider the source, and maintain an ability and willingness to critically consider those writings we cannot confirm by scripture (i.e. through the teachings of Moses, the prophets, and Messiah). *************************************** In the first chapter of Romans alone, we find the personal pronoun ("I/we") used more times than in the entire book of Acts. Paul is the only person in the NT, aside from the original 12, claiming for himself the title of apostle. Barnabas is referred to as an apostle, normally along with Paul, yet we have no record of him claiming the title. Paul did claim it, however, by my estimates at least 20 times. Is this sufficient to believe him? Well, it sets a dangerous precedent doesn't it? If we can take a man at his word on such a thing, how shall we reject the "Rev" Moon, Jim Jones, and David Koresh as prophets? Indeed, Messiah even mentioned this: "If I bear witness to myself, my testimony is NOT true" (emphasis added) John 5:31 That's pretty heavy. If even Messiah can't be taken at HIS Word, how much more important is it that a lesser person, one claiming apostleship be tested? Messiah was confirmed, by Moses, by the prophets, by John (who himself was confirmed by the prophets), and by the apostles. And what confirms Paul? Only his own word, and the word of his friends and traveling companions. This can be considered an echo of what the wise King Solomon said: "Let another man praise you, and not your own mouth; A stranger, and not your own lips." Proverbs 27:2 In fact, when we look at the Book of Revelation, specifically to the letters the Holy Spirit gave to John to give to the seven churches, only one can be confirmed as having any direct dealings with Paul. And in the letter to that church (the Ephesian church) is mentioned: "I know your works, your labor, and your patience, and that you cannot bear those who are evil. And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars." Rev. 2:2 NKJV I believe one of Paul's "defenders" may have a more complete list of places outside his own writings where Paul is presented as an apostle, so let's wait to get too deep into that. Let's move on to Paul's apparent belief in himself as the GREATEST apostle. "For I consider that I am not at all inferior to the most eminent apostles". ...."As the truth of Christ is in me, [b][i]no one shall stop me from this boasting in the regions of Achaia.[/b][/i]" 2Cor. 11:5,10 NKJV "For I am the least of the apostles, who am not worthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me was not in vain; [b][i]but I labored more abundantly than they all[/b][/i]...". 1Cor. 15:9,10 NKJV "But from those who seemed to be something - whatever they were, it makes no difference to me; God shows personal favoritism to no man- [b][i]for those who seemed to be something added nothing to me.[/i][/b] But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, ...and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship..." Gal. 2:6,7,9 NKJV Can you believe it?? "Those who SEEMED to be something (implying they actually aren't anything) added NOTHING to me." No fellowship? No clarification? No fresh perspective or alternate interpretation? Not even a group consensus? Just a couple of verses, later, he goes on to publicly proclaim how he put Peter in his place: "But when Peter had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed; for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision. And the rest of the Jews played the hypocrite with him so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy. But when I saw that they were not straight forward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, "if you being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews?" Galatians 2:11-14 NKJV He goes on ostrracize Peter further for not following the gospel as preached by Paul. It is interesting to note that earlier in this same book, Paul CURSES (or asks G-d to curse) ANYONE who preaches a different gospel than his own! "But even if we, [b][i] or an angel from heaven[/b][/i], should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we preached to you, [b][i]let him be accursed[/i][/b]. As we have said before, so now I say again, If any one is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed." Galatians 1:8-9 Could Paul actually be asking G-d to curse Peter? And how can we reconcile this with his other teachings?- "For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win the more; and to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might win those who are under the law; to those who are without the law as without law... that I might win those who are without law; to the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some." 1Corintians 9:19-22 NKJV "Therefore, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God. Give no offense, either to the Jews or to the Greeks or to the church of God, just as I also please all men in all things, not seeking my own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved. Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ." 1Corinthians 10:31-33 NKJV That oughtta get the converstation started...

Post edited by: MattBob_SquarePants, at: 2007/03/18 13:41

Oh, but wait... here's some more about the relationship between Paul and the Ephesians. "And he went into the synagogue and spoke boldly for three months, reasoning and persuading concerning the things of the kingdom of God. But when some were hardened and did not believe, but spoke evil of the Way before the multitude, he departed from them..." Acts 19:8,9 NKJV See the beginning of the chapter to confirm that, yes, this is the Ephesian church. And Paul himself confirms the schism: "This you know, that all those in Asia have turned away from me." 2Timothy 1:15 So basically, -Paul said to them: I'm an apostle [i]*edit* Forgot the reference. Ephesians 1:1[/i] -The Ephesian church said to him: No you're not -And Yeshua said to the Ephesians: Well done.

Post edited by: MattBob_SquarePants, at: 2007/03/18 21:29