God cannot be mean and yet show everyone mercy at the same time. I wouldnt blame God or call him mean if he didnt allow anyone to go to heaven because none of us deserve it at all. The fact that he gives us the chance to accept him itself shows the fact that he is not mean

one of the ways I think about it is that God knows every choice we could make in a situation. He made us, He knows us. And for every choice we could make, He knows where that will take us, and what the situations we will get into because of it are. So he's like an uber-computer (not really--way better) computing everything that could happen and knowing what we could do, but not making it happen. Maybe... Luke

k, another thing. God doesn't need us to go to heaven, but He desperately wants us to. why else would He make us? But because he is a just God, if we don't meet the small standards He sets for us, we don't deserve His heaven. The murderer, at the last point of his life, can truly accept God and then his past is wiped away. That could show that God had "destined him for heaven" but then why would have God allowed him to be a murderer in the first place? that can't be part of God's will, it's against His commandments. And why would God have to forgive us for sinning if He knew and "made" us sin in the first place. Free will is one of those confusing things I won't understand until God tells me, but I believe He gives us the choice to do anything at all that we want to. Luke

Luke, You are on the right track, and thought process. The reality is, no one can comprehend God, and how exactly all of this works. However, I do know one thing. In order for us to grasp any of this, we need to eliminate "time" from our concept og God. God created time, He is not limited by it. Now, sit back and think of this for a sec. God knows what we are going to do...... drum roll..... because He sees us doing it.... get it? Let me draw you a picture. God is represented by the entire picture... He is larger than the picture... He is infinate, so the picuture is just an illustration, but check it out. The first large white dot represents the beginning of time, which God created, and He already was in existance, the last large white dot represents the end of time, which is still to come... everything on earth happens, and falls between the two large white dots. You can see I listed a few... Adam & Eve, Noah and the ark, a "timespan" of 10,000 years, me typing this message. Now think for a second, and imagine that the human life is a microscopic dot on this timeline. Okay... now, picture God "watching" this timeline, and being Soveriegn to it... He is larger, is actually encompasses this timeline. God can see everything at once. He sees Adam in the garden, at the same time He sees me typing this message... He sees Christ dying in the very instance that He sees Him returning! God knows the future because He is there! He is presently looking at the entire scope of time. He does not force me to type this message, but He knows that I am doing it, and He "saw" me doing it 7,000 years ago. He knows because He sees. He interacts, and is involved in our lives, SURE HE IS! We ask Him to be every time we pray! Does He manipulate us to do individual tasks all day long? Absolutely not. Does the drawing make sense? God is not within the confines of linear time. He presently sees the past, present, and future all at once... that does not mean that He makes all of it happen. Sorry, I am not an artist... [img size=576]http://www.mypraize.com/components/com_joomlaboard/uploaded/images/God_and_time_2.jpg[/img]

My problem is that if god knows something is going to happen that means that there is no way to change it.

Bob... You are not following what I am saying. God knows everything because "to Him" (in His eyes) it has already happened. He is not looking into the future. It is all present tense for Him. He sees all decisions that we make, and knows the results, because He is there... To say that, "if God knows something is going to happen..." is a statement within the confines of linear time. We have to remove "time" from the equation. God is outside of time, looking in, and He sees all of time from the beginning to the end, all at once... It is a little bit like us watching a DVD. NOTICE THAT I SAID A LITTLE BIT!!! Most DVDs have a "Scene Selection" where we can jump from one spot on the DVD to any other spot, without having to watch everything in between. Now, regardless of where we go to in the DVD, we have no control over how the movie is going to play out. We have no control over the writer who orginially wrote the movie, or how the director directed the movie, or even how the actors chose to act out the movie. However, we can watch it, and we can "see" how it all plays out. Now, let's say that we watch the same movie 100 times... I don't know about you, but if I watched a movie 100 times I would pretty well know everything that was going to happen within that movie. Some friends come over and they want to watch the same movie. When I put that movie in, I already know everything that is going to happen. However, I am not controlling what happens, nor how the movie ends (not including interactive DVDs :) ) So you see, it is KINDA! like that, not exactly. We can not make an exact representation, but the idea is that God knows because to Him.... it has already happened! Our future is not "future" to God. He already saw it, and He currently sees it... The fact that He sees it, and has seen it, does not in any way shape or form suggest that He manipulated it, or forced it. It simply means, He has already seen it, and He sees it currently. I know it is hard to grasp, but that is because we are trying to grasp a concept that is privy to God, and our minute minds can not comprehend it. -Matt

wow, Matt, that's amazing I love your definition of God being outside of time. That fits with everything I understand. He sees all that's going on and knows it, and it also matters to Him. Yeah, He knows what we're gonna do because He let us and saw us do it years ago...and also years in the future? I love that He's omnipresent. DVD...yeah. He's so caring that He's watched our DVD enough to know what happens, and He didn't affect it, but He knows it. I'm pretty much repeating what you say, but that's a great way to think about God. You should come talk at my youth group...we'd love ya. Luke

Yes, Matt. You're doing an excellent job. [b]DHfan wrote:[/b] [quote]yes, God chooses to save us but why dont we have a choice in the matter? Why does God "not want anyone to die, but for all to have eternal life" and yet he chooses that some people will go to Hell?[/quote] We don't have a choice in the matter because we as humans are innately and entirely corrupt. We already make the choice to hate and reject God, because it's our human nature to do so. Only by the intervention of the holy spirit are we capable of accepting Him. And to address the second part - God does NOT choose that anyone will go to Hell. We are all destined there from the start. God simply chooses to SAVE some of us. And on a parallel point, God does not 'make us' sin. Evil does not exist because of God. Evil exists because of the existence of creatures (us) who are imperfect - less than God. --- We do have free will. We have the ability to make our own choices. But the choices we make, we make because of who we are - and we are all humans. As humans, we are not capable of choosing God on our own. It's completely against our nature. It is by the grace of God that we are saved... his purposeful intervention - the Holy Spirit working in our hearts. As far as the topic of not being able to change our future... I'm a fatalist. I believe that everything that happens was going to happen from the creation of time. I suppose in many ways you could say I'm a strong believer in 'fate' or 'destiny'. But even though what we will ever say or do or decide was set from the beginning, it doesn't mean that it's not the result of our own choices. --- All in all, I've always found that this topic is among the most difficult for human minds to grasp. I am troubled to understand it myself. Let us be thankful that there is a conciousness greater than ours that governs the affairs of the universe.

I wouldn't say "set" since the beginning of time. I'm thinking more on the lines of "known" from the beginning of time. God can show us what will happen, 'cause He knows it'll happen, not 'cause He'll make it happen. And about us being destined for hell from the beginning, it's because of our sin nature. I don't know if you've noticed but even little kids that can barely talk or make humongo decisions, they deliberately disobey sometimes what their parents say. We have no chance to be perfect, because our sin nature is always persuading us to sin. I hate my sin nature... Luke

but by choosing to only save some... he is still causing others to go to Hell There are a lot of verses in the New Testament reffering to the fact taht we need to choose Jesus and accept his offering..... this implies (at least in my mind) that it is something that we are choosing, not something that is being chosen for us.... i understand that we are sinful and really do not have the capacity to do anything good by ourselves.... but God can help us.... we just need to make the choice for ourselves whether or not we will allow the Holy Spirit to lead us in our decision.... I understand the arguments for predestination and the elect but I just do not personally agree with it

Post edited by: DHfan, at: 2006/06/18 21:56