destiny, fate, whatever. the Bible says that God can give prophecy of the future. this means that he knows what's gonna happen. so, does this mean he controls people to make that happen? or if he made people with a certain personality so that they will definitely do this one thing, doesn't that kinda mess with free will? I know he gives us the free will to choose salvation, but how far does that free will go? Luke

well God does not control the things that we do (i know people will disagree with this statement). I mean, would we believe that God controlled the people who hijacked the planes on 9/11 or controlled those kids who shot up Columbine and killed that girl Cassie because she was a christian. I believe that we have free will to choose but that God still works to make good out of our bad situations that we get into and the bad decisions that we make

those things mostly depend on the stupidity and not being able to see the future such god can. But i also read a book and somewhere in the middle it said that we should not be mad at people but at the demonic forces behind the bad actions that they do.

Ok think about it this way. If god knows I am going to get into a car accident, is there anything I can do not to get into that accident? That makes it seem like god has control, and our fait is pre-determined before we are born. God already knows who is going to hell before they are even born, so some poeple are destined to hell before they are even born.

I understand the thinking there but it doesnt do too much against the idea of free will..... we make choices and those choices affect the outcomes.... God knows what will happen, but that does not change the fact that we technically still have a choice in the matter The demonic forces behind the actions they took? I think that that's just trying to take blame away from men by saying "ooo they couldnt help it... they were being controlled by demons".... while possible.... I dont believe that you can necessarily say that.... that would imply that we dont have any responsiblity for our actions because of the fact that we are being controlled by demons

My point is that you can not have free will if what is going to happen is predetermined.

[b]Luke wrote:[/b] [quote]destiny, fate, whatever. the Bible says that God can give prophecy of the future. this means that he knows what's gonna happen. so, does this mean he controls people to make that happen? or if he made people with a certain personality so that they will definitely do this one thing, doesn't that kinda mess with free will? I know he gives us the free will to choose salvation, but how far does that free will go? Luke[/quote] Nowhere in the Bible is the term "free will" ever mentioned. Ever. However... [b]Ephesians 1:11[/b] [i]In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,[/i] --- And to be quite honest, I'm with Bob on this one. I'm a complete fatalist by nature, and a Calvinist to boot, though I suppose the latter goes without saying. We do not "choose salvation". God chooses to save us. To understand this, you need to understand the concept of total depravity, and predestination and election.

yes, God chooses to save us but why dont we have a choice in the matter? Why does God "not want anyone to die, but for all to have eternal life" and yet he chooses that some people will go to Hell?

God is mean, thats why.

i beleive its just more along the lines of god can see everything at once and during the middle of our lifes he gives us those chances but he knows whats ahead of that by seeing time from all angles their is to view