[b]Genesis 6:8 – “But Noach found grace in the sight of ADONAI.”[/b] 2580 chen, khane; from 2603; graciousness, i.e. subj. (kindness, favor) or objective (beauty):-favour, grace (-ious), pleasant, precious, [well-] favoured. Dictionary Trace - 2603 chanan, khaw-nan'; a prim. root [comp. 2583]; prop. to bend or stoop in kindness to an inferior; to favor, bestow; causat. to implore (i.e. move to favor by petition):-beseech, X fair, (be, find, shew) favour (-able), be (deal), give, grant (gracious [-ly]), intreat, (be) merciful, have (shew) mercy (on, upon), have pity upon, pray, make supplication, X very. [b]Genesis 6:5-9 - "ADONAI saw that the people on earth were very wicked, that all the imaginings of their hearts were always of evil only. ADONAI regretted that he had made humankind on the earth; it grieved his heart. ADONAI said, 'I will wipe out humankind, whom I have created, from the whole earth; and not only human beings, but animals, creeping things and birds in the air; for I regret that I ever made them.’ But Noach found grace in the sight of ADONAI. Here is the history of Noach. In his generation, Noach was a man righteous and wholehearted; Noach walked with G-d."[/b] Notice, in Genesis 6:5-9, that Noah found G-d's grace, but, he was a righteous man. This is the opposite of those who did not find G-d's grace, they were evil all of the time. So, grace is associated with righteous behavior. All of the following Torah verses use this Hebrew word, grace (chen). Let’s look at each of them so that we can gain some insight as to how this word is used: [b]Genesis 18:1-5 - "ADONAI appeared to Avraham by the oaks of Mamre as he sat at the entrance to the tent during the heat of the day. He raised his eyes and looked, and there in front of him stood three men. On seeing them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, prostrated himself on the ground, and said, ‘My lord, if I have found favor in your sight, please don't leave your servant. Please let me send for some water, so that you can wash your feet; then rest under the tree, and I will bring a piece of bread. Now that you have come to your servant, refresh yourselves before going on. Very well, they replied, "do what you have said.’”[/b] What I would like to point out here is in the verses just before this one; Abraham obeyed G-d and circumcised himself and his whole household. [b]Genesis 17:23 - "Avraham took Yishma'el his son, all the slaves born in his house and all who had been bought with his money, every male among the people in Avraham's household, and circumcised the flesh of their foreskin that very day, just as G-d had said to him”[/b] Before we find grace, we find obedience. The following verses indicate that Abraham obeyed the law: [b]Genesis 26:1-5 - "A famine came over the land, not the same as the first famine, which had taken place when Avraham was alive. Yitz'chak went to G'rar, to Avimelekh king of the P'lishtim. ADONAI appeared to him and said, ‘Don't go down into Egypt, but live where I tell you. Stay in this land, and I will be with you and bless you, because I will give all these lands to you and to your descendants. I will fulfill the oath which I swore to Avraham your father - I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky, I will give all these lands to your descendants, and by your descendants all the nations of the earth will bless themselves. All this is because Avraham heeded what I said and did what I told him to do, he followed my mitzvot, my regulations and my teachings.’”[/b] Here, we see that Abraham was justified by grace trough faith, but, he still obeyed G-d's requirements. Commands, decrees, and Torah. G-d seems to give grace to those who are obedient to His Torah, yet even the Torah observant, like Abraham, do not deserve the grace. Grace comes by faith, but faith is demonstrated by righteous actions. [b]Genesis 19:15-21 - "When morning came, the angels told Lot to hurry. ‘Get up’" they said, ‘and take your wife and your two daughters who are here; otherwise you will be swept away in the punishment of the city.’ But he dallied, so the men took hold of his hand, his wife's hand and the hands of his two daughters -ADONAI was being merciful to him - and led them, leaving them outside the city. When they had brought them out, he said, ‘Flee for your life! Don't look behind you, and don't stop anywhere in the plain, but escape to the hills! Otherwise you will be swept away.’ Lot said to them, ‘Please, no, my lord! Here, your servant has already found favor in your sight, and you have shown me even greater mercy by saving my life. But I can't escape to the hills, because I'm afraid the disaster will overtake me, and I will die. Look, there's a town nearby to flee to, and it's a small one. Please let me escape there - isn't it just a small one? -and that way I will stay alive.’ He replied, ‘All right, I agree to what you have asked. I won't overthrow the city of which you have spoken.’”[/b] [b]Genesis 30:25-27 -"After Rachel had given birth to Yosef, Ya'akov said to Lavan, 'Send me on my way, so that I can return to my own place, to my own country. Let me take my wives, for whom I have served you, and my children; and let me go. You know very well how faithfully I have served you.’ Lavan answered him, 'if you regard me with favor, then please listen: I have observed the signs that ADONAI has blessed me on account of you.’”[/b] In Genesis 19 we see G-d's grace being bestowed on Lot. This is interesting because the last verses of chapter 18 indicate that G-d is going to protect the righteous of Sodom. So, Lot is considered righteous, therefore he receives grace. [b]Genesis 34:1-12 – “Now Dinah, the daughter Leah had borne to Jacob, went out to visit the women of the land. When Shechem son of Hamor the Hivite, the ruler of that area, saw her, he took her and violated her. His heart was drawn to Dinah daughter of Jacob, and he loved the girl and spoke tenderly to her. And Shechem said to his father Hamor, "Get me this girl as my wife." When Jacob heard that his daughter Dinah had been defiled, his sons were in the fields with his livestock; so he kept quiet about it until they came home. Then Shechem's father Hamor went out to talk with Jacob. Now Jacob's sons had come in from the fields as soon as they heard what had happened. They were filled with grief and fury, because Shechem had done a disgraceful thing in Israel by lying with Jacob's daughter--a thing that should not be done. But Hamor said to them, 'My son Shechem has his heart set on your daughter. Please give her to him as his wife. Intermarry with us; give us your daughters and take our daughters for yourselves. You can settle among us; the land is open to you. Live in it, trade in it, and acquire property in it.' Then Shechem said to Dinah's father and brothers, 'Let me find favor in your eyes, and I will give you whatever you ask. Make the price for the bride and the gift I am to bring as great as you like, and I'll pay whatever you ask me. Only give me the girl as my wife.' Because their sister Dinah had been defiled, Jacob's sons replied deceitfully as they spoke to Shechem and his father Hamor."[/b] In this story, we have a wicked man who wants grace from Dinah's family. He does not find grace, but rather death. Again, we see a link between righteousness and grace, or rather the opposite: the wicked find no grace. I have listed the rest of the verses in the Tanach which contain our word "grace": Genesis 39:2-5, Genesis 39:19-23,Genesis 47:23-30 Genesis 49:33 - 50:6, Exodus 3:20-22, Exodus 3:20-22, Exodus 12:35-36, Exodus 33:12-17, Exodus 34:8-14, Numbers 11:10-15, Numbers 32:4-7, Deuteronomy 24:1-4, Ruth 2:2, Ruth 2:10, Ruth 2:13, 1 Samuel 1:18, 1 Samuel 16:22, 1 Samuel 20:3, 1 Samuel 20:29, 1 Samuel 25:8, 1 Samuel 27:5, 2 Samuel 14:22, 2 Samuel 15:25, 2 Samuel 16:4, 1 Kings 11:19, EST 2:15, EST 2:17, EST 5:2, EST 5:8, EST 7:3, EST 8:5, Proverbs 3:4, Proverbs 5:19, Proverbs 11:16, Proverbs 13:15, Proverbs 17:8, Proverbs 22:1, Proverbs 28:23, Proverbs 31:30, Proverbs 1:9, Proverbs 3:22, Proverbs 3:34, Proverbs 4:9, Proverbs 22:11, Ecc. 9:11, Ecc. 10:12, Jud 6:17, Psalms 45:2, Psalms 84:11, Jer. 31:2, Zec. 4:7, Zec. 12:10, Nah. 3:4 After looking at each of these passages, it appears that the righteous find grace, not because they deserve it, but rather because G-d is favorably disposed towards those who obey Torah.

I would like to add two things: [ol][li]Grace is inherently undeserved.[/li] [li]The ability to follow Torah is a result of grace[/li][/ol]

Until a Scripture can be posted proving this post wrong.....That Grace was never applied to anyone who did not live out HaShem's Torah and never counted to those who invalitated it in any way.....your position, theology and opinions are invalid.

[b]barry wrote:[/b] [quote]Until a Scripture can be posted proving this post wrong.....That Grace was never applied to anyone who did not live out HaShem's Torah and never counted to those who invalitated it in any way.....your position, theology and opinions are invalid.[/quote] The fact that those who did not live out HaShem's Torah weren't immediately cast into eternal Hell the very second they sinned (which God certainly could have justly done) shows that at least some grace is applied to sinners.

This is not a discussion about sin. King David sinned and we see grace applied to him. Read the post before commenting. Throughout it is shown grace comes undeserved. The discussion is whether or not grace is give to those who invalidate Torah. Again, not one instance is this shown to happen. Those given grace where those seeking righteousness and living Torah.

[b]barry wrote:[/b] [quote]This is not a discussion about sin. King David sinned and we see grace applied to him. Read the post before commenting. Throughout it is shown grace comes undeserved. The discussion is whether or not grace is give to those who invalidate Torah. Again, not one instance is this shown to happen. Those given grace where those seeking righteousness and living Torah.[/quote] That's what I was showing. They invalidated Torah and didn't immediately receive the punishment which they justly deserved. So for at least a time grace was applied to them. How about John 8? [color=#0000ff]2 Early in the morning he came again to the temple. All the people came to him, and he sat down and taught them. 3 The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in adultery, and placing her in the midst 4 they said to him, “Teacher, this woman has been caught in the act of adultery. 5 Now in the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. So what do you say?” 6 This they said to test him, that they might have some charge to bring against him. Jesus bent down and wrote with his finger on the ground. 7 And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them,[/color][color=#ff0000] “Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her.”[/color][color=#0000ff] 8 And once more he bent down and wrote on the ground. 9 But when they heard it, they went away one by one, beginning with the older ones, and Jesus was left alone with the woman standing before him. 10 Jesus stood up and said to her,[/color][color=#ff0000] “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?”[/color][color=#0000ff] 11 She said, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said,[/color] [color=#ff0000]“Neither do I condemn you; go, and from now on sin no more.”[/color]

Post edited by: Silent_K, at: 2008/04/14 15:40

What about Paul? [b]Acts 9:1-19[/b] (ESV) [color=#0000ff]But Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest 2 and asked him for letters to the synagogues at Damascus, so that if he found any belonging to the Way, men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem. 3 Now as he went on his way, he approached Damascus, and suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. 4 And falling to the ground he heard a voice saying to him,[/color][color=#ff0000] “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?”[/color][color=#0000ff] 5 And he said, “Who are you, Lord?” And he said,[/color][color=#ff0000] “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. 6 But rise and enter the city, and you will be told what you are to do.”[/color][color=#0000ff] 7 The men who were traveling with him stood speechless, hearing the voice but seeing no one. 8 Saul rose from the ground, and although his eyes were opened, he saw nothing. So they led him by the hand and brought him into Damascus. 9 And for three days he was without sight, and neither ate nor drank. 10 Now there was a disciple at Damascus named Ananias. The Lord said to him in a vision,[/color][color=#ff0000] “Ananias.”[/color][color=#0000ff] And he said, “Here I am, Lord.” 11 And the Lord said to him,[/color][color=#ff0000] “Rise and go to the street called Straight, and at the house of Judas look for a man of Tarsus named Saul, for behold, he is praying, 12 and he has seen in a vision a man named Ananias come in and lay his hands on him so that he might regain his sight.”[/color][color=#0000ff] 13 But Ananias answered, “Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much evil he has done to your saints at Jerusalem. 14 And here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call on your name.” 15 But the Lord said to him,[/color][color=#ff0000] “Go, for he is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the children of Israel. 16 For I will show him how much he must suffer for the sake of my name.”[/color][color=#0000ff] 17 So Ananias departed and entered the house. And laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus who appeared to you on the road by which you came has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” 18 And immediately something like scales fell from his eyes, and he regained his sight. Then he rose and was baptized; 19 and taking food, he was strengthened.[/color] Post edited by: Silent_K, at: 2008/04/14 15:37

You have gotten a little premature as this is covered in part 2 BTW John 8 and the story of the adultress is not in any of the earliest codex's so to build anything on it is shaky ground. While to moral of the story may be good, it is just that, a story.