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Lost In Translation

defiant-revolutionary

8 year(s) ago

I have in the past few months started reading the bible from front to back. The version I have is my brothers "Complete Jewish Bible" which leaves the names of the prophets intact (for instance jeremiah's real name was pronounced yirme-yahu, isaiah yesha-yahu, elijah, eliyahu), which for whatever reason were translated, when names shouldn't be translated. This comes obvious to me because my name for instance is Christopher... generally I go by Chris... if I go to france or africa or japan or australia or saudi arabia, where ever... I'm going to expect someone to call me Chris... or Christopher... perhaps your different language will cause it to be pronounced somewhat differently, but none the less if my name is Chris, don't call me Crat or Crud, my name is Chris, that's the name I will answer to. Alright, but anyway... So I was reading in Kings where Eliyahu comes out (sorry look it up if you want the text I tend to paraphrase but correct me if my paraphrase loses something) and summons all the prophets of Ba'al then he says "I am the only prophet of YHVH left, but Ba'al's prophets number 450" then he proceeds to challenge their faith in Ba'al by offering a competition of sacrifices, the prophets of ba'al were given first choice in the bull and allowed to offer their sacrifice first, but neither sacrifice was to have a fire put under it, that the gods being prayed to had to light to fire to acknowledge their existence. So all the prophets of Ba'al set up their sacrifice and stood outside all day praying to Ba'al to light the fire. Eliyahu even mocks their god during this time. But alas, no one answered when they called upon Ba'al. Then Eliyahu comes and makes his sacrifice, on his sacrifice he has water poured on it 3 times and fills a trench around the sacrifice with water, then at the time of the evening sacrifice he calls upon YHVH and sure enough YHVH answered and lit the fire so hot that it even evaporated all the water in the trench around the sacrifice. Then all the people fell on their faces saying YHVH is Elohim, YHVH is Elohim.... (a day or two before this I had downloaded E-Sword which is a free bible software which has the KJV but it has the original hebrew word if you hover over the character so you can see the original wording, which was helpful in differentiating what was actually being said, I don't encourage the KJV but this program for the hebrew characters is very useful) Ok, so I read through that and I started wondering... ok these are the people of Israel he's talking to... it's not like he went off to Egypt or Babylon and found all these believers in Ba'al, they were right in his home of Israel, yet he was the ONLY one left who was a prophet of YHVH. So I'm thinking like... these people just got rescued from Egypt got their promised land who is this god Ba'al that everyone is praying to. I looked in the appendex in my bible for Ba'al and it said "Ba'al- a phoenitian deity"... well that was real helpful... so I went online and started searching for Ba'al to figure out who it is that everyone was praying to if they weren't praying to YHVH.... what I found was more than I bargained for.... now I'm not saying that everyone must believe what I believe mind you, but in real life I have for about 3 or 4 weeks now been seeking people who might be interested or have something to say on this topic, and alas, I think what someone was saying on the "what's happening to christianity" thread is pretty much what I discovered.... no one really believes, or if they believe, they believe what they believe but don't care to learn any different. The only person who showed any interest in this wasn't a christian, but says his personal beliefs he got from studying black magic in general he says his belief is "knowledge is salvation".... which... to each his own beliefs.... but regardless him being the only person interested was very sad, so I'm hoping to find someone on here that is interested in this concept. What I found was many christian websites that says Ba'al means Lord. This is also the Ba'al from Baalzebub (Lord of the flies). As far as direct definitions go, I found lord as one of many definitions, however I think the case of Baalzebub makes clear that it can be safely translated to Lord. So what does this mean? From what I'm coming to discover... 7000+ times in the old testament the name YHVH was replaced with Lord (which translated to Hebrew means Ba'al), in general prayer and general thought of faithful believers in the Holy One of Israel He is referred to not as YHVH but as Lord or Ba'al.... in fact, back to the beginning of this post, remember how I said for some reason these names were translated, but other names, like David or Ba'al were not translated... it's the names which have Yah or Yahu in them.... those who were named in reverence to Yah that were translated, to take Yah out of them, just as they took YHVH out of the scriptures and replaced it with Ba'al. This is so that all the faithful believers will not call on the name of YHVH, but rather call on Ba'al, and not be answered (or at least it has been shown that he is at time willing to ignore the pleas of his own people Israel, when they called on Ba'al, but answered the one who comes in his name)..... in fact, I am (thankfully) not Catholic and never have been but when I was younger I went to a Catholic school where I was taught in religion class that it's a sin to say YHVH because of the third commandment.... but NO... this is not what the third commandment says... it says don't say his name in vain, it doesn't say don't say his name like.... EVER! In fact it is stated "Baruck Haba B'Shem YHVH" or "Blessed is he who comes in the name of YHVH" (yes this too is translated and most people will think "The Lord" to finish that phrase) I understand that other people have different beliefs so for that reason I have used the letters of the name in place of the name itself so as not to offend them and wind up getting my post deleted. I hope that the content of my message doesn't warrant my post's deletion simply because they disagree. I think everyone can come to their own conclusions on this topic, but to do so, I think the dialogue should be allowed at least..... this was a new concept to me and surely is a new concept to many others, maybe you will be prone to object to it instantly and if so that's your choice, but at least leave the thread here for debate so anyone else can see and decide for themselves.... I would be interested to see any thoughts or opinions about this, although ultimately as stated above my hope is to find at least one christian believer who reads this and understands, because in the world the only one who understood was not a christian and that makes me sad.......... I know that had I discovered this before, my brother would've have understood and discussed this with me... I don't check this forum all the time but I hope to come back here and have some interesting dialogue on the topic. Thank You for your time... Yah Bless... and Shabbat Shalom..

defiant-revolutionary

8 year(s) ago

Yes, lord is an english word. Also "save" is an english word. This word is used because the Hebrew word for save is pronounced "yasha" but we have the equivalent word in english so rather than add "yasha" to our own language so we understand it we use the word in our language that is equivalent. This is the case in a word, but not in a name... names shouldn't translate. I speak english and your name is Llywen... if I spoke spanish your name would not become the spanish word which means the same thing, your name would still be Llywen. So if I have that respect for you as merely a human, you would think that the same respect if not a higher respect would be given to the name of YHVH... but instead it is not. No one refers to him by name because someone somewhere along the way gave you to think that speaking His name offends Him somehow.... But calling him Lord or master is degrading to the fullness of what He is. He is not merely a master or a lord of the earth and the heavens, he is also a father to it (and an inspiration to it, indeed the entirety of creation is His inspiration). I don't know about you but my dad would probably get offended if I started referring to him as nothing more than a land lord and food bringer... and not only that, as I have stated in Eliyahu there was another god that much of Israel went astray and followed (pretty much all of them from the scripture, as Eliyahu states he is the ONLY prophet of YHVH that remains), and this god liked to be called lord or master, thus it was his name and everyone who prayed to him called him that.... but he was not really a god, for indeed there is no elohim save YHVH, and Eliyahu proved this to us (meanwhile YHVH preserved the scriptures so that all could know and remember what Eliyahu proved). I will leave some scriptural references and then you all can ignore this completely and act like you never read it.... (again I would suggest the E-sword which even makes the KJV clear by showing the KJV *and* the original hebrew word and definition so that you can reveal that which has been translated out of meaning, the #s in this is because I copied and pasted the text from within this program, it is references to the original hebrew which you can then hover over to see what it originally said and meant) Note "H3068" is YHVH *not* lord though that is likely how you will read it... "Jer 12:16 And it shall come to pass,H1961 ifH518 they will diligently learnH3925 H3925 (H853) the waysH1870 of my people,H5971 to swearH7650 by my name,H8034 The LORDH3068 liveth;H2416 asH834 they taughtH3925 (H853) my peopleH5971 to swearH7650 by Baal;H1168 then shall they be builtH1129 in the midstH8432 of my people.H5971 " Interesting... if they will diligently learn the ways of my people, to swear by my name, YHVH LIVES!.... as they taught my people to swear by Baal... "Jer 23:26 How longH5704 H4970 shall this beH3426 in the heartH3820 of the prophetsH5030 that prophesyH5012 lies?H8267 yea, they are prophetsH5030 of the deceitH8649 of their own heart;H3820 Jer 23:27 Which thinkH2803 to cause(H853) my peopleH5971 to forgetH7911 my nameH8034 by their dreamsH2472 whichH834 they tellH5608 every manH376 to his neighbour,H7453 asH834 their fathersH1 have forgottenH7911 (H853) my nameH8034 for Baal.H1168 " I prefer the wording in Matt's Complete Hebrew Bible, but KJV seems to be accepted around here so lets use it... prophets of deceit of their own heart... which think to cause my people to forget *my name* by their dreams... as their fathers have forgotten *my name* for baal... wow! I can relate! I was always taught to call YHVH Lord instead, apparently my fathers forgot His name for baal... "Hos 2:16 And it shall beH1961 at thatH1931 day,H3117 saithH5002 the LORD,H3068 that thou shalt callH7121 me Ishi;H376 and shalt callH7121 me noH3808 moreH5750 Baali.H1180 " note Ishi shows: Contracted for H582 (or perhaps rather from an unused root meaning to be extant); a man as an individual or a male person; often used as an adjunct to a more definite term (and in such cases frequently not expressed in translation.) : - also, another, any (man), a certain, + champion, consent, each, every (one), fellow, [foot-, husband-] man, (good-, great, mighty) man, he, high (degree), him (that is), husband, man [-kind], + none, one, people, person, + steward, what (man) soever, whoso (-ever), worthy. Compare H802." note Baali shows: From H1167 with pronominal suffix; my master; Baali, a symbolical name of Jehovah: - Baali. my master my lord very similar in any case, but from this verse it becomes apparent YHVH has appointed a day at which you will no longer refer to him as "my master" or "my lord". Interesting to note I hadn't previously seen, Baali apparently is a symbolical name of Jehovah well why would that be?? perhaps because at one time all but Eliyahu had turned to Baal instead of YHVH.... For those still confused. I would like to repeat this, it was in the original post but none of the few brave enough to respond at all seemed to catch. Baal is the same word that is used in Baalzebub (whichever spelling you choose is irrelevant I am not similarly concerned about using the proper name for those who try to usurp YHVH's praise) which means "Lord of the flies"... now again if you want to make it mean "master of the flies" or "god of the flies" that's your choice... but Lord of the flies is the common translation of the name Baalzebub... which might I add, while it is the common translation, it has NOT replaced the word "baalzebub" 7000+ times in the old testament alone in the translated scriptures... no that honor is only given to YHVH which was replaced with Lord 7000+ times... Lord, which as shown... if you add "of the flies" to lord and translate it to hebrew it is scripturally accurate to say "baal-zebub" thus if you remove the "of the flies" it would simply say "baal" (course it'd start with a capital B just like the Baal from the old testament)... ... I'm not gonna try to convince you, I was hoping to find someone who would read this and have the same appalling astonishment as I did.... but it doesn't look like it's gonna happen here.... Look at the old testament look how many times prophets spoke His name and praised it... not by using another word as a substitute, but by directly saying YHVH and having it written into the scriptures to be passed down for all to see.... I guess I'll check back in a few days or something, but somewhat disappointing that I'm the only one who seems to care.... May Yah assist in letting those who seek, find.... and may they seek truth...

MisterNathan

8 year(s) ago

[b]defiant_revolutionary wrote:[/b] [quote]Note "H3068" is YHVH *not* lord though that is likely how you will read it...[/quote] I know in the KJV, they generally put "Jehovah" as "LORD" in all caps to differentiate between the Name of God and other uses of the word "lord" (such as Adonai). [quote]I prefer the wording in Matt's Complete Hebrew Bible, but KJV seems to be accepted around here so lets use it[/quote] Feel free to use the CHB. I know there are several users here who prefer it. :) If I really wanna dig, I'm gonna be pulling out E-Sword anyways. :P [quote]my master my lord very similar in any case, but from this verse it becomes apparent YHVH has appointed a day at which you will no longer refer to him as "my master" or "my lord". Interesting to note I hadn't previously seen, Baali apparently is a symbolical name of Jehovah well why would that be?? perhaps because at one time all but Eliyahu had turned to Baal instead of YHVH....[/quote] I gotta say, bro...I'm a little confused as to what you mean here. Are you trying to say it's wrong or some form of idolatrous substitution to use the "ba'al" form of "lord" instead of the "adonai" form of "lord" in reference to the One True God? I honestly have no idea what you're saying, I'm just spitballing lol. [quote]YHVH which was replaced with Lord 7000+ times[/quote] But only to have something other than those letters put there, not because it actually, literally means "Lord". The only times "Jehovah" is actually written out (again, in all caps) in the KJV Bible is either when God is speaking of His actual Name or it is coupled with "yah", where it is translated as "LORD JEHOVAH" (I'm assuming because it would look silly to translate it as "LORD LORD" :P ). [quote]not gonna try to convince you, I was hoping to find someone who would read this and have the same appalling astonishment as I did.... but it doesn't look like it's gonna happen here....[/quote] I don't think it's for a lack of want to be appalled or astonished...I think it's more...we aren't, or at least I'm not, sure of what exactly you aren't going to try to convince us. On a side note, it's really awesome to see you posting, Chris. I'm glad you're taking part here, bro. :)

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