ok, now, read Romans 9. why does it say God choses whoever He feels like, and that He hardens peoples hearts for His glory? Romans 9:17,18 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."[g] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. does God make people harden there hearts and therefore condemn them to hell? that cant be! God is all about love! I dont think thats very fair if thats what is going on, but I dont believe it is. if that were so, we could do whatever we want right now, because God has already predestined us to where we are going. but, knowing that that cant be true, someone please tell me what Romans 9 means.

Post edited by: Swinny89, at: 2006/12/01 22:25

this is always an interesting topic because the Bible is clear that God does predestine SOME things... I do not believe by any stretch of the imagine that God predestines everything, but some things yes.... my personal theory is that God will pre-ordain the major things in history (i.e. Jesus' death, Pharaoh, Revelation, possibly other things that we aren't aware that were predestined). However, I do not think it would be necessarily correct to state that God predestines absolutely everything that happens, minor things, individual conversions outside of Paul and such One thing that makes me wonder about the idea of predestination is Romans 10:14-15: But how are men to call upon him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without a preacher? And how can men preach unless they are sent? A major component that many of those who I have heard speak for predestination is that those who are saved will be saved and such, our going out and preaching is only in obedience... but this verse specifically states that our preaching is for salvation

Do we HAVE to talk about this again? It's all I ever hear at my school. Argue about something that matters...

I do believe in Predestination. I think not believing in it is very close to Deism. Free will also gives Satan more control than God (Satan is free to interfere in our lives and God can't). This cannot be, God must have more power, right? Of course! I believe, as an analogy, we have a will, but not a free will. God gives us choices on where we can go. But ultimately whatever choice we make will lead us to where we want to be. Picture 1,000,000 roads laid out before you that all take you to the same place. You have the will to take whichever road you want to, but ultimately God laid out the roads in a way that lead you to where he wanted you. If free will was true, then what does Romans 9 mean? He is the Potter, we are the clay, and he molds us how he wants us. If free will was true, then it is only by chance that we are saved. If Pilate had free will he could have chosen to free Jesus, in which case we would not be saved, right? Also, think of Paul. Did Paul have his free will taken away when God threw him on the ground blinding him saying get up and GO. Commanding him? Was God making an acception for Paul that everyone in the end would wish he'd made for them? Or was there no free will involved to begin with? I ask this: If everything was not predestined, why did God put the tree in the garden in the first place? Had he truly loved everyone and not wanted sin in the world, he would not have put the tree there. Why did he put it there? Maybe because he wanted to put it there. But why...?

[b]actresscp wrote:[/b] [quote] I ask this: If everything was not predestined, why did God put the tree in the garden in the first place? Had he truly loved everyone and not wanted sin in the world, he would not have put the tree there. Why did he put it there? Maybe because he wanted to put it there. But why...?[/quote] you're going to have to explain... i dont see how the tree in the garden argues for predestination... seems more to me like he was giving them a choice

[b]DHfan wrote:[/b] [quote]seems more to me like he was giving them a choice[/quote] So you're telling me God thought that Adam and Eve having a choice was worth billions upon billions of human lives whom he loved so much? What a loving God that would make him.... And ultimately, EVEN IF he was giving them a choice, he still put the tree there, so he still wanted it there. Regardless of why He put it there, He put it there knowing every person that would suffer for it. So regardless of why, He still chose to. If he thought it was that important or if He loved those lost people that much he would have kept it out of there. But, regardless of why, He didn't. Which means He wanted it there. Knowing it caused sin. He knew. And so he must have wanted sin.

[b]actresscp wrote:[/b] [quote] So you're telling me God thought that Adam and Eve having a choice was worth billions upon billions of human lives whom he loved so much? What a loving God that would make him.... [/quote] not like we dont make a choice to sin too [quote] And ultimately, EVEN IF he was giving them a choice, he still put the tree there, so he still wanted it there. Regardless of why He put it there, He put it there knowing every person that would suffer for it. So regardless of why, He still chose to. If he thought it was that important or if He loved those lost people that much he would have kept it out of there. But, regardless of why, He didn't. Which means He wanted it there. Knowing it caused sin. He knew. And so he must have wanted sin.[/quote] eh..... really, really tough to try and say that.... God knows what's going to happen, but still gives a choice, therefore he wanted the choice they made to happen... sorry but that's really iffy

[b]DHfan wrote:[/b] [quote][b]actresscp wrote:[/b] [quote] So you're telling me God thought that Adam and Eve having a choice was worth billions upon billions of human lives whom he loved so much? What a loving God that would make him.... [/quote] not like we dont make a choice to sin too [quote] And ultimately, EVEN IF he was giving them a choice, he still put the tree there, so he still wanted it there. Regardless of why He put it there, He put it there knowing every person that would suffer for it. So regardless of why, He still chose to. If he thought it was that important or if He loved those lost people that much he would have kept it out of there. But, regardless of why, He didn't. Which means He wanted it there. Knowing it caused sin. He knew. And so he must have wanted sin.[/quote] eh..... really, really tough to try and say that.... God knows what's going to happen, but still gives a choice, therefore he wanted the choice they made to happen... sorry but that's really iffy[/quote] Oh, so you ARE saying that God thought that having the choice was worth billions upon billions of human lives. Now I am very convinced of how wonderfully loving He is, in fact, when I go out and tell others of God I will say "And He is so loving He is willing to condemn you so these other people can have free will." That will be a great conversion technique....

[b]actresscp wrote:[/b] [quote][b]DHfan wrote:[/b] [quote][b]actresscp wrote:[/b] [quote] So you're telling me God thought that Adam and Eve having a choice was worth billions upon billions of human lives whom he loved so much? What a loving God that would make him.... [/quote] not like we dont make a choice to sin too [quote] And ultimately, EVEN IF he was giving them a choice, he still put the tree there, so he still wanted it there. Regardless of why He put it there, He put it there knowing every person that would suffer for it. So regardless of why, He still chose to. If he thought it was that important or if He loved those lost people that much he would have kept it out of there. But, regardless of why, He didn't. Which means He wanted it there. Knowing it caused sin. He knew. And so he must have wanted sin.[/quote] eh..... really, really tough to try and say that.... God knows what's going to happen, but still gives a choice, therefore he wanted the choice they made to happen... sorry but that's really iffy[/quote] Oh, so you ARE saying that God thought that having the choice was worth billions upon billions of human lives. Now I am very convinced of how wonderfully loving He is, in fact, when I go out and tell others of God I will say "And He is so loving He is willing to condemn you so these other people can have free will." That will be a great conversion technique....[/quote] so... becasue God is loving, he isn't going to really punish anyone? and I am convinced that you really dont have much to say because all you did is try to make what I said look like something absolutely evil here's something along the same line I could say about your idea: next time i go and tell someone about our loving God, i'll say "hey... God loves you, but you might not accept Him, which means that God is throwing you into Hell without giving you a choice about it."... works about the same way as what you said

[b]DHfan wrote:[/b] [quote][b]actresscp wrote:[/b] [quote][b]DHfan wrote:[/b] [quote][b]actresscp wrote:[/b] [quote] So you're telling me God thought that Adam and Eve having a choice was worth billions upon billions of human lives whom he loved so much? What a loving God that would make him.... [/quote] not like we dont make a choice to sin too [quote] And ultimately, EVEN IF he was giving them a choice, he still put the tree there, so he still wanted it there. Regardless of why He put it there, He put it there knowing every person that would suffer for it. So regardless of why, He still chose to. If he thought it was that important or if He loved those lost people that much he would have kept it out of there. But, regardless of why, He didn't. Which means He wanted it there. Knowing it caused sin. He knew. And so he must have wanted sin.[/quote] eh..... really, really tough to try and say that.... God knows what's going to happen, but still gives a choice, therefore he wanted the choice they made to happen... sorry but that's really iffy[/quote] Oh, so you ARE saying that God thought that having the choice was worth billions upon billions of human lives. Now I am very convinced of how wonderfully loving He is, in fact, when I go out and tell others of God I will say "And He is so loving He is willing to condemn you so these other people can have free will." That will be a great conversion technique....[/quote] so... becasue God is loving, he isn't going to really punish anyone? and I am convinced that you really dont have much to say because all you did is try to make what I said look like something absolutely evil here's something along the same line I could say about your idea: next time i go and tell someone about our loving God, i'll say "hey... God loves you, but you might not accept Him, which means that God is throwing you into Hell without giving you a choice about it."... works about the same way as what you said[/quote] just by putting the choice there for us doesnt mean He WANTED us to sin, but instead wanted us to choose Him. if there was no choice but to love Him it is not a choice and therefore not true love.