It was asked that this be put in the moderated forum, and since MattBob_SquarePants hasn't done it yet, I figured I'd go ahead and start it lol. So, here's the question: is Jesus the Messiah promised to us in the Tanakh? The one rule is that, while you are allowed to debate whether He is the promised Messiah, you can not debate His deity. Thank you for accepting these rules. May God be glorified in this.

Should be fine. I would think the logical think would be for Soldier to begin. As most of us know, there are hundreds of Messianic prophecies. Many of them Yeshua did fit. I don't think anyone argues that NONE of them would apply to Him. Rather, the theme of most (blblical) disagreement on this is that ultimately, a person must fit EVERY Messianic prophecy, in order to be shown as the Messiah. So, in my mind, what makes the most sense is that we start with any Messianic prophecies Soldier (or whomever else) does NOT believe are met by Yeshua. Just a suggestion, of course. Others can post first, if they like. As of now, there are no messages pending approval for this thread.

Lets see how the Greek word, translated “[i]they came together[/i]” is defined by Strong’s and used elsewhere in the NT: 4905 sunerchomai, soon-er'-khom-ahee; from 4862 and 2064; to convene, depart in company with, associate with, or (spec.) cohabit (conjugally):- accompany, assemble (with), come (together), come (company, go) with, resort. This term, "sunerchomai", is used in 32 verses. Lets look at them so that we can begin to understand the contextual use of the word. [b]Matthew 1:18 Now the birth of Yeshua Mashiach was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.[/b] [b]Mark 3:20 And the multitude cometh together again, so that they could not so much as eat bread. Mark 6:33 And the people saw them departing, and many knew him, and ran afoot thither out of all cities, and outwent them, and came together unto him. Mark 14:53 And they led Yeshua away to the high priest: and with him were assembled all the chief priests and the elders and the scribes. Luke 5:15 But so much the more went there a fame abroad of him: and great multitudes came together to hear, and to be healed by him of their infirmities. Luke 23:55 And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid. John 11:33 When Yeshua therefore saw her weeping, and the Jews also weeping which came with her, he groaned in the spirit, and was troubled, John 18:20 Yeshua answered him, {I spake openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue, and in the temple, whither the Jews always resort; and in secret have I said nothing.} Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? Acts 1:21 Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Yeshua went in and out among us, Acts 2:6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. Acts 5:16 There came also a multitude [out] of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one. Acts 9:39 Then Peter arose and went with them. When he was come, they brought him into the upper chamber: and all the widows stood by him weeping, and shewing the coats and garments which Dorcas made, while she was with them. Acts 10:23 Then called he them in, and lodged [them]. And on the morrow Peter went away with them, and certain brethren from Joppa accompanied him. Acts 10:27 And as he talked with him, he went in, and found many that were come together. Acts 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. Acts 11:12 And the Spirit bade me go with them, nothing doubting. Moreover these six brethren accompanied me, and we entered into the man's house: Acts 15:38 But Paul thought not good to take him with them, who departed from them from Pamphylia, and went not with them to the work. Acts 16:13 And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted [thither]. Acts 19:32 Some therefore cried one thing, and some another: for the assembly was confused; and the more part knew not wherefore they were come together. Acts 21:16 There went with us also [certain] of the disciples of Caesarea, and brought with them one Mnason of Cyprus, an old disciple, with whom we should lodge. Acts 21:22 What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come. Acts 25:17 Therefore, when they were come hither, without any delay on the morrow I sat on the judgment seat, and commanded the man to be brought forth. Acts 28:17 And it came to pass, that after three days Paul called the chief of the Jews together: and when they were come together, he said unto them, Men [and] brethren, though I have committed nothing against the people, or customs of our fathers, yet was I delivered prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans. 1 Corinthians 7:5 Defraud ye not one the other, except [it be] with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency. 1 Corinthians 11:17 Now in this that I declare [unto you] I praise [you] not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse. 1 Corinthians 11:18 For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. 1 Corinthians 11:20 When ye come together therefore into one place, [this] is not to eat the Lord's supper. 1 Corinthians 11:33 Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another. 1 Corinthians 11:34 And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come. 1 Corinthians 14:23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in [those that are] unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad? 1 Corinthians 14:26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.[/b] Now that we have examined all of the places where "sunerchomai" is used, we can see that the usage of the word sunerchomai seems to be a general “coming together” for a meeting or for a meal. It is only used once, out of the thirty-two times, to suggest sexual union. This word sunerchomai can NOT, therefore, be used to prove that Miriam and Yoseph had not previously had relations. In fact, the most common usage would suggest that that Miriam was found to be with child before they began to live together in the same house, or came together for the chupa (wedding canopy).

Matthew 1:18 Now the birth of Yeshua Mashiach was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was [u]espoused[/u] to Joseph, before they had a common house, she was found with child of the Ruach Elohim. No, they were married.

in time brother

Matthew is written in Midrashic style. So, when we search the Midrash we find that there were other women who were with child by the Holy Spirit. Who?

Some English translators are accurate to the original Hebrew: Revised English Bible: "...a young woman is with child..." Revised Standard Version: "...a young woman shall conceive..." James Moffatt Translation: "...a young woman with child..." New Revised Standard Version: "...the young woman is with child..." Aside from this, the Torah does, in fact, have an explicit word for virgin (bethulah), which is always used where the context requires virginity. The fact that Isaiah did not use the word "bethulah" lends credence to the understanding that he did NOT intend to convey that a virgin birth was involved. wide is the way of destruction and many are those who walk it.

[b]Romans 1:3 "concerning His Son, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh."[/b] the word "[i]seed[/i]" in the Greek is "[i]Sperma[/i]" By the way, Mary does not carry that, only Joseph did!

Soilder, The reason I said it was pointless is because in showing you "your right," it doesnt change the fact that Yeshua is the Messiah. My thought was one person thinks "virgin" another "a young girl unable to concieve" but in the end Yeshua is still Messiah and the birth was still Miraculous as fortold in Tanach. I want to change my mind. It is not pointless and does matter. Anytime we carry false beliefs it enables us to build "false messiahs" You not believing in this "false messiah" may be one of the best things to happen to you. I do feel what we are fighting is not the real Yeshua but the false one taught by the christian church. HaShem is doing a special work within you. Keep placing your feet within His footprints and walking the straight path.

Post edited by: barry, at: 2008/02/03 19:53

Nathan, To answer this question I think your gonna have to stick to Tanack.