Let's continue here, shall we. :) [b]Monergism wrote:[/b] [quote][quote]Don't think I didn't notice that you didn't directly address the scripture in Acts, and don't trying to go to Desiring God to find an answer.[/quote] 1. The text doesn't support what you think it does. Yes, they were worshiping a god in ignorance, but not the TRUE God. You would have to read SO MUCH into that text to make it say that they were worshiping the true God. 2. Trust me, I don't need Johnny P to exegete a basic text.[/quote] Paul clearly said what they were doing.....they were worshiping the true God ignorantly and Paul revealed Him to them. Acts 17: [color=#0000FF]22 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious. 23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. [b]Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.[/b][/color] Why would these people make an altar to God if they werent seeking God? This is why I said what I said about theology. In order to save the Calvinist definition of TD, Calvinism causes you to have to incorrectly exegete what Paul clearly said.

[b]Monergism wrote:[/b] [quote][quote]Consider Romans 2:14-15. How can a Gentile be unable to receive any spiritual truth from God if that Gentile already has the law of God in their heart? Isn't God's law good? Please show me in Genesis where a part of the fall included man not being able to receive any spiritual truth from God. I would like to respond to #2 above at length, but let's take this to a differnt place so we can abide by the rules. I look forward to dialouging with you.[/quote] ....Seriously? 1. I just quoted in Romans 3 that all are evil and fallen and can do no good, and do not seek God at all. 2. I also quoted 1 Corinthians that they cannot believe the gospel. 3. There is a HUGE difference between law and gospel. Just because someone has the Law does NOT mean they can come to God or receive any biblical gospel.[/quote] 1) I realize that, but Romans 3 is speaking in a general sense, not attempting to make the point that no man has the ability to seek God. Just because men didn't seek God doesnt mean they cant. 2) I realize that, but let's look at this passage: 1 Cor 2: [color=#0000FF][b]14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness unto him; neither can he know them,[/b] because they are spiritually discerned.[/color] Now, why does this passage say the natural man cant know the things of the spirit of God? Let's go back to verse 12 and read into 14: 1 Cor 2: [color=#800080]12[b] Now we have received[/b], not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is of God, that we might know the things that are freely given to us by God. 13 These things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness unto him; neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned[/color] So the reason the natural man cant know the things of the Spirit of God is because he hasnt received the Spirit of God. [b]We were all natural men at some point in our lives![/b] Again, Paul isn't saying that a sinner can't get saved unless God wants him to, he's saying that a man that is still minding "natural things" cant receive things from the Spirit of God. 3) Well, Jesus did say this: John 6: [color=#FF0000]44 No man can come to Me [u][b]unless the Father who hath sent Me draw him[/b][/u]; and I will raise him up at the Last Day.[/color] So you're right about people not being able to come to Christ when they feel like it. Jesus also said this: John 12:32 [color=#FF0000]32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, [u][b]will draw all men unto Me[/b][/u]."[/color] So that means erbody is getting "dragged" at some point AND just because someone is "dragged" doesn't mean they will be saved. John 6:44 was speaking of the beginning and the end of salvation, not what happens in the middle. There other scriptures that address what can happen between the beginning amd the end, like John 15:1-2. :) As far as you saying that person having the Law of God in their heart not meaning they can receive any Gospel, what scripture are you using to back that notion up? Jesus said this: Mark 8:34 [color=#FF0000]34And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, [u][b]Whosoever will [/b][/u]come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.[/color] He said, "whosoever will", not "whosoever I allow". The call of the Gospel goes out to all people and all people will receive the ability to respond salvifically when they hear the Gospel.

Ooh! A Calvinism debate. We haven't had one of these since the 50 page Free Will thread! [img]http://bjallison.com/emot/index_files/e21405.gif[/img]

Typical Calvinist respone. Almost all resort to name calling and telling people they dont understand. Your lens for viewing scripture is not 100% accurate. You go ahead and bow out, but as for calling me arrogant just remember, i'm not the one running around declaring myself the elect of God because I feel I have faith. You don't know what you're gonna do in the future, through you're lens God decides that, so you better hope you're a true vessel of mercy and not a vessel of wrath that God is simply using right now. As for me, I'll wait for God to declare me elect at the end. Hebrews 3:14. The institutional church has been a hot mess for years, ever since Constantine, so keep adhering to the teeachings of men from the 1500's who weren't inspired by God the way the original Apostles were all you want to.

Thanks guys. I know I can be a little strong at times, to say the least, but I do have a soft heart and I don't hate anyone on this site. I have a lot of things going on this week so I won't be able to post much, but please, if you believe Jesus isnt God please reconsider that position. I've told someone else that I have had people try to convince me that through prayer, fasting and having oil sloshed on them in church service that its okay for them to participate in a monagomous, homosexual relationship. You guys could probably imagine my reaction. :blink: :angry: :( I've even heard of people attempting to use scriptures to back this notion up, speaking of David and Johnathan's relationship, insinuating that it was homosexual. The same with Naomi and Ruth. And of course they used the argument of, "Well Jesus never said its wrong to have homosexual relations. If He didn't specifically mention it as a sin, it cant be a sin. Paul is off his rocker, plus he hates women too, telling them to be submissive." And of course the ever popular, "Where does the Bible say thou shalt not wrangle booties? I want to see those specific words and Jesus has to say it just like that for me to believe it." smh Some people just wanna do what they do. Jesus is definitely God. He had to be in order to be sinless because no mere man can be totally sinless. Anyways, I love you guys and I apologize for coming across too harsh with anyone, but some of the things some of you believe is as dangerous as clogged arteries. Please reconsider those beliefs.