Hey ya'll i am curious to see what your opinion is on this topic. i know many modern day baptists believe that the power of the holy spirit left when the 12 apostles died. i have never once had someone bring an good argument in favor of the the holy spirit no longer being with the people. in scripture it doesnt support this idea one bit. id like to see what evidence can be brought against me in this topic, then i will muster up all the verses i can find for my case. god bless ya'll

well... I would say something.... but you wanted us to argue against it.... so, I'll wait until we get someone to argue against it

I am a firm believer and participator in the gifts of the Spirit. The problem with baptists, lutherens, and presbyterians, is the fact they hate conviction. When the Holy Spirit brings about conviction, people get uneasy, uncomfterable, and angry. People don't like their sin shown. As Jesus said it, 'The darkness hates the light.' I have the gift of tongues, prophecy, discernment of spirits, and have also practiced gifts of diliverance(exorcisms, ect.), and healing. Though I do not claim I can heal any man on the street, I have prayed over people and have claimed their automatic healing- and they received it. To God be the glory. 1 cor. 13 8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. --- Perfection has yet to come.

God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. God is never changing. The Holy Spirit is God... Thus... the Holy Spirit is the same today as He was during the Apostles time (Period).... end of story.... There is no Biblical argument that tongues has ceased...prophecy no loger exists...etc.. Nowe some may try to demonstrate, by using Scripture, that gifts of the Spirit have ceased, but everything they will throw at the argument, contradicts Scripture. Here is a free piece of advice... If you believe something, and it contradicts Scripture, then you are wrong. -Matt

i completely beleive in gifts of the spirit and that we all have them

Matt, I am going to have to disagree- On the basis of personal experience. I have had a prophecy over my life. Two years later the prophecy came EXACTLY how it was told to me. How then could it just be an excouraging word? God still works in miraculous ways. If not- throw out the book of 1 corintians.

[b]Farside wrote:[/b] [quote]Matt, I am going to have to disagree- On the basis of personal experience. I have had a prophecy over my life. Two years later the prophecy came EXACTLY how it was told to me. How then could it just be an excouraging word? God still works in miraculous ways. If not- throw out the book of 1 corintians.[/quote] Well.... you may "think" you disagree, but then you backed up what I said, and didn't say anything to the contrary... I'm confused.... What I said was that prophetic words, now, are more "exhortations", rather than additions to Scripture. There are no more additions to Scripture... You see... the Old Testament prophets used their gift of prophecy, to convey God's messages to the masses, and ultimately the world. Then Jesus Christ came, ulimately (I skipped a lot of history here..) the Word, and now we have the Bible. We no longer have prophets that rule over us as an entire human race. We have Scripture, and we have a direct relationship with God... wich was impossible before the Atonement of the blood of Christ... Exhortations are words (sometimes prophetic) which are from God, revealed by the Holy Spirit, spoken (prophecied) to an individual, or over an individual and sometimes to a group of people, such as a church... But not to the entire world... Maybe it is the word exhortation that you are confused about... Exhortation = 1) A speech, discourse, or prophecy that encourages, incites, or earnestly advises. So... in summary. Prophecy is USUALLY used today in the form of exhortation... or it is a word from God for an individual, rather than to rule nations... Keep in mind that God reserves the right to use prophecy however He so chooses, regardless of what Matt Gaiser says... -Matt

[b]Farside wrote:[/b] [quote]I am a firm believer and participator in the gifts of the Spirit. The problem with baptists, lutherens, and presbyterians, is the fact they hate conviction. When the Holy Spirit brings about conviction, people get uneasy, uncomfterable, and angry. People don't like their sin shown. As Jesus said it, 'The darkness hates the light.'[/quote] I would dissagree with this statment. At my baptist High School We couldn't do any drama, music production (even if it was a fundraiser) Without doing a alter call. They made us wait in that uncomfortable silence until at least one person raised their hand or at least got up. It made me wonder what their priorities were when they would announce well 78 people got saved this week... or whatever. Its like they couldnt stand not having anyone get saved. I have many strong friends in the baptist denomination. I dont really know alot of people that are lutherens and presbyterians. but i must say one thing my friends did well was make me think that i was not a "good" christian. They were good at pointing out the fact that they were much more Holier than i was. I thought it was just sad. We shouldn't be discouraging eachother about the holier status. Who are we to say who is holier than others? That brought alot of conviction, doubt, and anger with my friends. To the point that some days i didn't even want to be their friends. In the end we still are friends but are farther apart then we were. And thats my thought about that part. :)

Farside, Watch you tongue brother, your sneared comments and mocking (even though you think we don't pick up on it) comments are no called for... All of these posts have been really good on either side... However, there's alot left unturned... I am Southern Baptist, and I am finishing my Bachelors from Liberty University, in Lynchbrug virginia... We covered this VERY extensively because basically it's a hot button topic.. Believe it or not MOST baptists do not believe gifts have ceased... You'd be surprised how many believe they still exists... Some of the major differences are between certain denominations of Baptists though... For instance the Southern Baptist's might have a general difference in belief on this issue then say the Independant or Freewill baptist movement... Also, Lutherans, Catholics, AND Presbyterians around the US have had Charasmatic movements happening in their churches... The catholic's movement has REALLY tore alot of Churches apart too.... HOWEVER< getting that out... and getting on topic I must say that Personally I do not feel gifts are gone.... YES, God COULD have taken them away once scripture was revealed in it's entirety, and YES he's got the power to do so even though his nature never changes... But, biblically, IF the gifts were going to pass away after Paul & the apostles don't you think that Paul wouldn't have wrote to the Corinthians telling them to eagerly seek the gifts... Really, I mean, if Jesus had said something about Miraculous signs leaving it WOULD have been note worthy... Instead the scriptures state that he told the Apostles that they will do GREATER things then he.... However, trying to combat some of the arguments... I do believe the scripture in Hewbrews was perhaps a weaker argument... I realize that the post was probably just written to get the ball rolling, but, I mean that's a sketchy verse you know.... I mean, to go against a commandment given by an Apostle, leader of the church I need more then a "could be...couldn't be" type of verse..... I mean a commandment from a Apostle... TO ME, carries more weight then a verse which can be easily meant for two different things.. or be interpreted two different ways..... NOW, in order to make this more interesting...Let me put THIS out there.. How come so many Charasmatics believe and use Pauls scriptures but REFUSE to abide by the other commands given in reference to the use of them.... Such as no more then three people speaking in tongues in a service, and having an interpreter present???? Puzzles me how some of these "Charas-mania" churches can sit there and condemn believe who don't pracitce gifts when they practice them in a such a way that they actually go against Pauls commands AND scare of people who are truly seeking Christ... That to me the biggest issue... lol ....When is the PERSONAL edification ever more important then the salvation of a seeking person???....NEver Jesus' last commandments were to making people speak in tongues, but to make disciples and baptist them.. Thats the great commandment... the number one priority.... When ever gifts push away someone who would have been saved if used properly then that persons responsible for that seekers soul in my opinion.... Fun posts thus far... im excited to see this warm up... :P

Post edited by: admin, at: 2006/06/17 01:33

Hey there Admin! True! Very true.... too many times we see the gifts abused, mis-used, and mis handled. Many times, the churches and people that are incorrectly using these gifts "think" that they are Spirutually rich, and mature... maybe they are, and maybe they are not... My point is, the reason that many people reject the gifts today is because of exactly what you said... Many churches that practice the gifts go against Scripture, and do not use them accordingly. So it is easy for someone to come into that setting and assertain that, "These displays of gifts is not Biblical, and not of God." And they have every right to think that, because they are probably right. Here is what I would say... If you place your faith (or even "base" your faith) off of man, and his actions, then you will be wrong 100% of the time. Man will ulimately fail you at some point. So do not base your beliefs off of what you have seen done, or improperly done, by men in a building. Instead, read the Bible, and ask God, and then base your faith, and beliefs off of Scripture. When you do this, you can not fail. For if your faith is placed in God, you will be right 100% of the time... I am not saying that ALL of your theology will be correct, but your heart will be RIGHT with God... and that is what matters. -Matt